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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Keel bolts for an iron keel Catalina 25

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[quote][i]Originally posted by Stinkpotter[/i]
[br][quote][i]Originally posted by Garboard[/i]
[br]...bilge water has been seeping out of the keel well below the attachment area...in one spot, so I'll have to seal that...[/quote]It sounds like the seepage is from the "Catalina smile"--the seam between the bottom of the keel stub that's part of the fiberglass hull, and the top of the cast iron keel (something like 8-10" below the bottom of the boat).  It is particularly common for that seam to open up around the forward edge of the keel ("smile").  For bilge water to seep out from there, it presumably migrates down the keel bolts and might well have gotten into the wood core at the bottom of the stub.  Sealing the "smile" is an OK idea from the standpoint of seawater entering it, but I would also seal up the bolts and nuts inside, and as I suggested, check for soft core.

Another thing I'd consider with the rusty nuts and bolts, before slathering them with a sealant, is painting on some "rust reformer" such as that made by Rustoleum.  It's a milky liquid that turns ferrous metal black and forms a clear coating, supposedly inhibiting further rust development.  It's meant to be painted over--I would cover it with "goop" of some kind.

Catalina built a huge number of C-27s and I'm guessing over 1000 C-25 fins with cast iron keels before switching to lead around 1984(?).  I haven't heard of a keel falling off one of them.  (Not that I've heard of everything or that there couldn't be a "first"... [8)] )

[/quote]

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T O P I C R E V I E W
Garboard	Posted - 03/27/2018 : 20:14:37 Hi, my 1980 Catalina 25 has badly corroded bolt "heads" the nuts are almost gone. I don't know what's out of sight but bilge water has been seeping out of the keel well below the attachment area...in one spot, so I'll have to seal that, but before I get to that--- My question: does anyone know were the keel bolts threaded into the CAST IRON keel or were they cast in?? I'm familiar with the available kit for installing additional bolts but I have worries about that: first I have heard that that area may not be well structured and may need reinforcement to support the new bolts. Secondly the kits come with 316 stainless steel rod...which I understand to be vulnerable to corrosion...I may spring for silicone bronze threaded rod to avoid that... But before I start torquing on the old bolt heads, trying to "unscrew" them I want to see if anyone else has info on how they are actually attached to the keel. Thx in advance!
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
Chichester	Posted - 10/30/2020 : 13:26:21 Hi all, So Ii did add some keel bolts. So pleased with the way the project went and should again thank you guys for your input. So very helpful. I started video-logging my projects and the first one went out last week. It's here if you'd like to watch it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_neBGJS_8Yo Cheers...and Jibe on, y'all.
Chichester	Posted - 10/16/2019 : 15:04:35 Thanks Richard. Roger that!
RichardG	Posted - 10/15/2019 : 15:51:58 Good luck, Martin! I'd be interested in the specific tools/jig/technique, etc. you utilize to drill and tap into your cast iron keel, given the hardness and not-so-easily-accessible location.
Chichester	Posted - 10/13/2019 : 23:25:33 Wow, Garboard, Stinkpotter and MarkMaxwell. It's 1:19 a.m. and I have been unable to sleep after an afternoon of acute analysis. My C25 has similar bolts, the mild steel with corroded nuts that allow at least one washer to slip over the top and off of the stud. I want to thank you guys for all your posts and for re-affirming my respect for this forum. After reading this thread I've gone from hopelessly disappointed to positively enthused. I am now planning my keel stud project for my 1981 beauty with a modicum of confidence. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Will post my progress forthwith. :)
Mark Maxwell	Posted - 10/05/2018 : 16:46:17 Project done! 4 new bolts installed..:-) I ended up cutting a hole in the sole under the table (dinette layout) this access gave me the room I needed to get to the middle section of the keel. I put a nice cover on it and since it�s not really in the walkway it�s not a problem. Future use will be nice access to inspect the bilge without having to remove any seats...Piece of mind restored.
Mark Maxwell	Posted - 09/28/2018 : 21:52:32 Well I went a little different than the CD kit. I installed a 3/4� fine thread stud with a 3/16� backing plate. I was surprised at how thick that stub is. From top laminate to keel is 2 1/2� I�ll have 4 bolts in total. Each stud is mounted 3� into the keel. With those backing plates and the specs of those bolts, it should be stronger than ever.
Mark Maxwell	Posted - 09/18/2018 : 13:53:17 I�m looking into this project too. Access is difficult because of the dinette interior. Garboard, have you started yet, which interior layout do you have?
islander	Posted - 04/06/2018 : 10:44:21 I wouldn't use the word 'normal' to describe the smile, More like 'common'. It's not normal to have a keel smile or cracking. It's an indication that the keel has become loose and is moving around and shouldn't be considered normal on any sailboat. The severity of the crack is an indication of how much it's moving. At some point in time it will have to be addressed cuz it ain't gonna get better.
bigelowp	Posted - 04/06/2018 : 08:10:50 If it would help -- Walk over to my boat which is also at NCM (over near the restaurant) -- look at the "smile" and compare to your boat. As I recall it is a tad bit worst than on yours, but very "normal" for our boats. I am comfortable that my old non-stainless bolts are fine for the sailing I do. However if I were going to do anything, I would as Dave suggested, add bolts, leaving what is their in place and use penetrating epoxy on the wooden core. In my youth I used "Git Rot" on wooden boats where structural dry-rot was forming with good success -- this is basically the same situation: penetrating epoxy to halt any moisture/rot and installation of additional support via new keel bolts.
SKS	Posted - 04/05/2018 : 13:46:16 I wouldn't think you'd need to break the bolts, even if they're rusted. Break the nuts......absolutely. In fact, splitting the nuts would probably be the best plan. You could run the threads with a die to clean them up and install new nuts. This of course, assumes the OP is going to sister in the threaded rods from the CD kit (or equivalent) to help support the keel. As I mentioned in one of my replies, I'd considered this myself on a 1980 Catalina 25, that I could have bought for just a couple thousand dollars. I elected to spend a little more, around $6,500, and get the stainless keel bolts, along with the inboard diesel. The economics for the OP are different, since he already owns the boat. As always, my free advice comes with a double your money back guarantee.
Stinkpotter	Posted - 04/05/2018 : 06:43:34 I'll just add that I think Catalina's recommendations (above) must relate to boats from the mid-1980s and later, with shiny stainless bolts and nuts, as on my 1985. Earlier boats with mild steel bolts and nuts generally don't seem to be candidates for removing and replacing the nuts and washers, at least not without breaking the bolts. No point in doing that. That's why I suggested hardening the core under with penetrating epoxy, glassing around them, and sistering in new bolts (as per CD). Most of the core could be removed and replaced with glass as Catalina suggests, to make a more solid base for new bolts. But with heavily rusted original bolts and nuts, I think I'd leave them and the core under their washers.
SKS	Posted - 04/04/2018 : 03:20:35 CD sells a kit to sister in new stainless rods to support the keel from the keel trunk. Catalina has (a long time ago) developed a method to replace the wood in the keel stub with glass. Why invent something new ? As to the method you describe, drilling holes through the side of the keel to try and catch vertical holes down from the trunk could be difficult. And when you do match up the holes, you're introducing a potential source of a leak, relying on your fillers to keep out the water. If you want to improve on the CD kit, try using longer rods to give you more attachment in the keel. Either way, I wish you the best on your repair. And PLEASE, keep us posted so we know how you make out.
Stinkpotter	Posted - 04/03/2018 : 20:49:49 quote: Originally posted by Garboard ...I may: 1. drill 1" diameter holes 18-20" into the keel...3 or 4 holes right on center of the existing line of bolt heads...2. drill 1 1/2" holes cross-wise through the keel...3. prep 1 1/2" bar stock with threaded holes to act as "nuts" on the lower end of the new keel bolts...4. insert 3/4" threaded rod and attach to the lower cross-nuts... It seems to me you are planning on relying on the strength of the threads through fairly small bars rather than the threads in the full length of the hole into the keel, as you do with the CD kit. Epoxy around the rods might add a little strength, but I think long threaded holes and rods would be stronger. If stainless to iron galvanic corrosion is your concern, there are compounds that can help minimize it. I also imagine the placement of the hole in step 2 so that it intersects with the hole in step 1 a challenge. Measurements in that geometric environment will be complicated. But I wish you the best in your quest. We want you to be confident your keel won't fall or be knocked off!
Garboard	Posted - 04/03/2018 : 17:31:16 I would interpret this as meaning "at least" so therefore keel on blocks with jacks supporting bilges...I wouldn't think you need to worry about exactly 70% but not hanging on a travel lift nor floating in the water...but I'd address your question to Catalina support and see what they say...good luck! quote: Originally posted by VictorS Wondering how to calculate that "...70% of the total boat weight on the keel..." Please let me have your feedback/suggestions, thanks.
Garboard	Posted - 04/03/2018 : 17:21:58 I do appreciate all the helpful advice...Thanks one and all...I will take photos of the process and try to post them here later...My C-25 has no "smile" not even a hairline crack...but the condition of the bolt heads is what got me going on this...I've been looking around for long bits and taps with which to do this project...but I've come to a decision, instead of tapping the new holes I may: 1. drill 1" diameter holes 18-20" into the keel...3 or 4 holes right on center of the existing line of bolt heads...2. drill 1 1/2" holes cross-wise through the keel...3. prep 1 1/2" bar stock with threaded holes to act as "nuts" on the lower end of the new keel bolts...4. insert 3/4" threaded rod and attach to the lower cross-nuts...5. cover/dam the cross holes...6. pour a batch of west system down each hole until the epoxy floods the cross holes and let them harden...7. finish closing the holes across the keel with thickened epoxy before painting...8. fabricate "fender" type washers to span the adjacent "flat" area of the bilge around each (or perhaps one long steel plate, bored for the old bolt heads etc.) 9. torque the new nuts and washers down and then paint everything with epoxy 10. leave enough space in the bilge to place a pump...
islander	Posted - 04/03/2018 : 15:33:39 Better yet How do you weigh it? Bathroom scale?
VictorS	Posted - 04/03/2018 : 15:12:57 Wondering how to calculate that "...70% of the total boat weight on the keel..." Please let me have your feedback/suggestions, thanks.
SKS	Posted - 04/03/2018 : 07:24:36 Here, I hope this is helpful: I had to do this twice. I think this is the better image. At least it's complete. Why this forum makes it so hard to post photos is beyond me.
Stinkpotter	Posted - 04/02/2018 : 19:49:46 Before going as far as building a new "stringer grid", I'd look into just adding several layers of glass and epoxy in the bottom and up the sides of the stub, with holes for the existing bolts. (No point in removing or messing with them.) I might alternate some "core-mat" and woven roving to build thickness, and then sister in some new bolts through the reinforced bottom. Before that, I might also harden up the old wood core as I described above. (I suspect the "Catalina smile" comes from compression of that wood, especially if it gets moist.) Keep in mind that the new bolts, held just by their threads and the threads you tap into the holes, are not as strong as the originals that are cast into the keel. But more is undoubtedly better.
VictorS	Posted - 04/02/2018 : 13:52:37 JLR, Please let us see some pictures before/process/after, thanks. VictorS
Garboard	Posted - 04/01/2018 : 20:14:57 thanks for your replies folks...one of the sad realities of these plastic boats is the "invisibility" of their structures...we "know" layers of cloth and resin really are very strong but they are not remotely as inspectable and repairable as are wooden structures...and with a hull liner obstructing access to the disgusting little "bilge" that Catalina built into their C-25 I'd have quite an ordeal redoing the "trunk"...I've thought about completely gutting the boat and glassing in a grid of longitudinal and cross floor supports to which I could attach a new set of keel boats...but for all that effort I think I'd rather start with a sailboat I truly loved... Still my years as a carpenter have trained me to believe that it is up to me to assure strength and safety...I can't leave a question mark dangling over my head (nor those of my ship mates)...
bigelowp	Posted - 04/01/2018 : 18:58:36 FWIW -- I too have a 1980 with dreadful looking keel bolts. I have discussed here on the forum and with "professional" boat yards their condition. The consensus is that for coastal work they are probably "just fine" despite looking ugly. As "Stinkpotter"has mentioned, I have covered with sealant, and my bilge is always dry (one good thing the only water is from the hatch if a heavy rain, no salt water) I do pay attention to the Catalina smile. in 2010 I had the bottom soda blasted, keel faired, and barrier coated. The hull looked great and the smile went away for three years, but has slightly and slowly reemerged. In my neck of the woods I have been advised that it would be cheaper to buy a newer hull than to spend on sintering in new keel bolts. Not sure if that is true, but I pay attention and my sailing habits are not extreme. I think if I were going to do offshore work I would invest. But until I see a significant issues I am careful, observant and cautious. My observation is that our boats are well built and far better built than their reputation in the yachting press. If you are on a lake or coastal bay, you are probably fine and should focus on other areas rather than stress on the keel bolts. Just one person's opinion though.
SKS	Posted - 04/01/2018 : 17:14:08 If you're going through all that effort, I'd remove all teh wood from the trunk and re-glass it. I had looked at that possibility myself, but opted instead to buy a 1986 with the staineless bolts from the factory.
Garboard	Posted - 03/31/2018 : 12:54:59 I started work on it today...mapped the 6 existing bolts and located them outside...then began drilling for new bolts with smaller bits...I'm thinking I may use 3/4" galvanized steel rod, try and send them down 12" I'll bore some 3/8" "drain" holes down into the "shoe" and work at drying it out with a vac and maybe some alcohol...then mix up a couple + gallons of west system and flood the bilge around all the bolts, thus sealing around them and filling any cracks or holes...then sandblast the keel and butter it over with thickened epoxy before painting it...what do you think??
Garboard	Posted - 03/31/2018 : 12:44:31 quote: Originally posted by Stinkpotter quote: Originally posted by Garboard ...bilge water has been seeping out of the keel well below the attachment area...in one spot, so I'll have to seal that... It sounds like the seepage is from the "Catalina smile"--the seam between the bottom of the keel stub that's part of the fiberglass hull, and the top of the cast iron keel (something like 8-10" below the bottom of the boat). It is particularly common for that seam to open up around the forward edge of the keel ("smile"). For bilge water to seep out from there, it presumably migrates down the keel bolts and might well have gotten into the wood core at the bottom of the stub. Sealing the "smile" is an OK idea from the standpoint of seawater entering it, but I would also seal up the bolts and nuts inside, and as I suggested, check for soft core. Another thing I'd consider with the rusty nuts and bolts, before slathering them with a sealant, is painting on some "rust reformer" such as that made by Rustoleum. It's a milky liquid that turns ferrous metal black and forms a clear coating, supposedly inhibiting further rust development. It's meant to be painted over--I would cover it with "goop" of some kind. Catalina built a huge number of C-27s and I'm guessing over 1000 C-25 fins with cast iron keels before switching to lead around 1984(?). I haven't heard of a keel falling off one of them. (Not that I've heard of everything or that there couldn't be a "first"... )

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.