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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Initially Posted - 06/25/2009 :  12:44:55  Show Profile
Thought I'd start a thread based on another thread dealing with heavy wind sailing.

I've been thinking of adding a second reef setup. My first reef is a two-line arrangement (one for the tack and one for the clew) and I like it very much for quick and effective reefing.

I've been thinking of two alternatives for a secpond reef. One would be just having a couple of extra short lines handy with stopper knots on each. Lower the main to the second reef points and feed the lines through the tack and clew and secure them to points on the mast and boom (cleats maybe). Only concern is working at the clew end of the boom in a blow.

The other thought is to use the in-boom setup (normally used for the topping lift which we don't have) to control the clew for the second reef - just like the in-boom line that controls the clew of the first reef. Then I could have another line for the tack or do that one manually with a short line. But I wonder if that sheeve at the end of the boom is too far aft to effectively pull out/down a second reef. Plus I'd have more lines and hardware to deal with when raising, lowering and flaking the sails.

Thoughts??



We cannot direct the winds but we can adjust our sails.


Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/25/2009 12:55:19

SEAN
Admiral

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Response Posted - 06/25/2009 :  14:31:57  Show Profile
I think the reef line is to far aft even for the first reef ..i usually use a sail tie thru the clue and around the boom ..but its not fast enough so i added a track on the side with a block on a car .

thats not done yet but i thought a line with a hook to use on both reefing clues would be faster way to go..and the in boom reef line on a hook to pull the clue straight back to really get it flat
the Cunningham on a hook for the front

for the smaller holes i have a 2`piece of small rope that stays on the sail ..theres a loop on one side , like on a sail tie



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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/26/2009 :  09:01:46  Show Profile
Sean, I have found that the in-boom line works fine for my first reef. Note that I use a two line system so that in-boom line only does the clew. I find that it pulls the sail back and down OK. A separate line does the tack. I agree that the second reef is probably too far forward for the in-boom system.

Your idea of a line with a hook sounds similar to what I am thinking. Perhaps the hook would be easier than trying to pass a line through the tack or clew. Then just add a cleat at the right spot on the boom to secure the clew's line and another on the mast for the tack's line. Still, I wonder how it would be to be working at the boom during a blow. I guess that is how it has been done for years by many, right?

I'm waiting for Frank Farmer to chime in. I think he has done something like this for his first reef. Like I said I am very happy with my first reef two line setup but would like a way to set the second reef - hopefully without a cacophony of equipment.



We cannot direct the winds but we can adjust our sails.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/27/2009 :  06:14:48  Show Profile  Visit Arlyn Stewart's Homepage  Send Arlyn Stewart an AOL message  Send Arlyn Stewart a Yahoo! Message
Randy, there are two methods to deal with the clew. One is to add a cheek block to the boom either directly or on a track at the point to pull the clew to the correct down and aft position. The line will then lead forward through a couple of eye straps to a horn cleat forward on the boom or if wanted through a cheek block forward on the boom, down through a turning block at the mast base and through deck organizers to a clutch or cleat.

The other is to simply use a line (explained in a sec) which will work fine if one doesn't use the 2nd reef often and wants to avoid adding the hardware.

The tack is simple to rig with a line made to the goose neck that feeds through the tack and back down to one of the boom cleats and it also can be led to the cockpit if desired.

Here is how to rig a simple clew line on the 2nd reef. Using a short length of line, make a simple loop in the end of the line by the age old method of folding a short section of line back and making an over hand knot with both. Pass the line through the tack clew and till it stops at the loop and add an over hand knot for a stopper so as to lock the line in place on the clew.

When ready to reef, drop the sail so that the reef point is at the boom, bring the line under the boom and back up to and through the loop and then lead it aft to secure it to the clevis at the boom end.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

N/E Texas and Great Lakes
Arlyn's Sailing Site
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frejoh
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/28/2009 :  05:51:21  Show Profile
Arlyn, could you please re-post the diagram of your single-line reefing system? I can't pull it up from your archived posts, and the Stewart family page doesn't come up either. Thanks!

Fred Johnson
250 WK #669
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Steve Raffel
Captain

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254 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2009 :  18:29:55  Show Profile
I use a cheek block for the clew and a reef horn for the tack. The advantage of this system is it allows the luff to be really tensioned. The disadvantage is you have to go on deck to install it. We try to put the 2nd reef in before we leave the slip.

Steve Raffel
C 250 WK #408
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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/28/2009 :  19:15:14  Show Profile
Steve, By "reef horn" do you mean a reef hook like this one?

If so, did you mount it on the boom or the gooseneck?

Arlyn, I know you have a loose footed main. Not sure how I would loop the clew line (second approach you described) under the boom and back through the loop without that line taking in all the sail that has been lowered.

Steve and Arlyn, does the line going through the cheek block for the clew lead forward to a cleat on the boom near the mast or on the mast itself? If it is on the boom does that mean you have to reef on a tack that puts the sail material on the other side of the boom as the cleat? Or do you just push the sail cloth away to get at the cleat?



We cannot direct the winds but we can adjust our sails.


Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/28/2009 19:17:18
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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/29/2009 :  06:24:20  Show Profile  Visit Arlyn Stewart's Homepage  Send Arlyn Stewart an AOL message  Send Arlyn Stewart a Yahoo! Message
Hey Fred, sorry about the link problems. The stewartfam site went away about a year ago and last winter the site was rebuilt so the link needs fixed. The link on my current post is good.

I am however confused as both of my reef points are set up for two line reefing.


Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

N/E Texas and Great Lakes
Arlyn's Sailing Site

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 02/11/2010 20:04:30
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frejoh
1st Mate

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84 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2009 :  09:10:06  Show Profile
No, I think it's my memory which was confused. Anyway, what I want to devise is a good way to run the current single reef line back to an additional rope clutch so we can at least take the first reef without going up on the foredeck, maybe with a mod to help the line run smoothly, similar to yours. Thanks for the diagram!

Fred Johnson
250 WK #669
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Steve Raffel
Captain

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254 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2009 :  18:19:33  Show Profile
Randy,
The reef horn you showed is much like the one I have. It is on the boom right next to the goosneck. My line from the clew goes through a cheek block to a cleat on the boom. I can get to the cleat regardless of which tack I am on.

Steve Raffel
C 250 WK #408
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willy
Captain

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412 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2009 :  18:50:55  Show Profile
I use the jiffy single line reefing as shown in Arlyns illustration but need to tell you that I always go to the second reef point. These boats are so overpowered...which is really great in 5 knot winds, that when I go to reef...at 12+ knots, I have never felt like I needed more canvas.

Edgy, WB#655
Dewey Beach, DE
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windsong
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2010 :  09:34:53  Show Profile  Send windsong an AOL message  Click to see windsong's MSN Messenger address
Randy, I'm wondering if you sorted out your second reef point. I agree with everyone who has weighed in so far - the end of the boom is too far aft to effectively pull down the clew. I've been using a sail tie to hold down the clew when on the second reef point, for heaven's sake. With all the reefing one does on our little boats, I think Arlyn's got it right - simplifying the reefing process is effort well spent. I've decided to go with a single-line solution for the second reef and two-line for the first reef. Harken's single-line reefing kit incorporates the cheek block and becket that Arlyn has used on his boom(on a track, which is nice), so it was irresistible, even if a bit pricey.
I am wondering: For your first reef point, how did you attach the end of the reef line to the gooseneck. I can imagine a few solutions, but I'm not sure what's best, and I was wondering what you came up with????


Michael Hetzer
"Windsong"
2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984
Myrtle Beach, SC
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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/06/2010 :  12:00:08  Show Profile
Michael, I didn't do the send reef point. I'm a fan of simplicity and didn't want a lot of lines on the boom and on the sail I decided that for the few times we get in that kind of wind I would just douse the main and sail with a furled genny.

Do you have the November 2008 Mainsheet? I did an article on our two-line reef setup for the first reef. I assume with the gooseneck question that you are asking about the line that pulls down (and forward) on the tack. That line terminates on the port side of the mast. There was a cheekblock there that was used in a single line reef from the factory. I tie off the tack line to it. From there the line goes through the tack reefing cringle and down to a block attached on the starboard mast plate (attach the block on one of the forward holes on the mast plate so the pull is down and forward) and then to a deck organizer and then back to a starboard clutch.



The reef clew is pulled back and down by the line that was the original one-line system. It runs inside the boom, down at the gooseneck to a block on the port mast base then to a deck organizer and back to a clutch on the port side. At the aft end of the boom it goes to a very small block I added to the reef clew. This reduces friction and makes everything go well.



When reefing, reef the tack first and then the clew. Otherwise you rick blowing out sail slugs.

Does that help?



We cannot direct the winds but we can adjust our sails.


Edited by - Nautiduck on 02/06/2010 12:08:18
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windsong
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Response Posted - 02/06/2010 :  14:08:13  Show Profile  Send windsong an AOL message  Click to see windsong's MSN Messenger address
Randy, Nice job. I'll find that old Mainsheet article. Looks GREAT! Thanks.
Regarding the second reef point, I use it constantly. Above 17 mph (not knots) - my boat just sails better with the second reef in. I'm adding a backstay adjustment in the hope that it will enable me to reduce heeling without always reefing. An outhaul could help with that too, I suppose. Right now, I have neither. I was out on Sunday in gusty conditions. Started in the second reef. Wind eased and I went to the first reef. Then no reef. Then the wind piped up to 20 mph, so it was back to the second reef and a tiny headsail. Frankly, I can't imagine how I'd sail here on Long Bay without the second reef.
Thanks again for the pics. Very helpful.


Michael Hetzer
"Windsong"
2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984
Myrtle Beach, SC
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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2010 :  15:03:30  Show Profile
Randy... I don't know if I'm looking at the picture correctly, but it looks like your reef-tack-line is bending around a part of the gooseneck in a way that could cause some serious chafe. Or is there an explanation for that little bend?

Association Port Captain, Mystic, CT
Past member and DPO of C-25 #5032
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing) and posting as "Stinkpotter".

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/06/2010 :  18:43:01  Show Profile
Good eye Dave! It appears to be the cotter ring that goes on the clevis pin that attaches the boom to the mast. I'll make sure the ring is swung forward over away from the line. It is also an oversized ring so I should go smaller.

Michael, maybe you need one of these. CDI Mainsail Furler



We cannot direct the winds but we can adjust our sails.


Edited by - Nautiduck on 02/06/2010 18:46:38
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bill bosworth
Navigator

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Response Posted - 02/06/2010 :  21:03:09  Show Profile
Randy;
Our second reef is set up much like you suggest. Our clue line runs through the boom the same as for the first reef. The line runs up through the clue, down to the boom. The line runs through a slit that is cut through the foot of the sail to allow the line to be tied around the boom. At the front the boom, the line exits to a block mounted near the bottom of the mast, then up to a cleat. In use I find that the clue line pulls the clue down and out very well. I use a reefing hook mounted on the same clevis pin used for the main tack. I do have to go forward to put in the reef, but with a little practice it goes in fairly quickly. I found that I had to cut a little off of the reefing hook to make it easier to fit through the reef tack cringle. We probably only use the 2nd reef 10 percent of the time, but when you need it, it makes all of the difference.

Bill C250wb #134 Serendipity
on Kerr Lake, NC

Bill c250wb #134
Kerr Lake, NC
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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/07/2010 :  08:08:56  Show Profile
Bill, thanks for the response. Sounds like using the in-boom line works to pull the second reef clew down and out. That is good to know. Then use a reefing hook on the second reef tack cringle. I suppose that both lines could be led back to the cockpit if desired but it sounds like that is not necessary. Good info. Thanks.




We cannot direct the winds but we can adjust our sails.

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 02/07/2010 :  09:16:03  Show Profile  Visit Arlyn Stewart's Homepage  Send Arlyn Stewart an AOL message  Send Arlyn Stewart a Yahoo! Message
Randy, I generally agree with those who argue that an in boom 2nd reef line is too far aft but on the other hand is a lot of confidence that Bill knows what he is talking about and that he makes it work.

There are several options. The one you propose is reasonably good, to simply tie it down and if loosing footed, that would be simple to do, albeit the line to the boom has to wrap in such a way to provide both down haul and out haul.

In the reef picture above in the thread, I show the use of a cheek block. If it is carefully placed, it does not have to be mounted on a track as it never needs adjusting... the pull point is the same every time. The advanatage (and you allude to it) is that all of the reef procedure can be handled from one position forward on the boom and that is no small thing when dealing with rough conditions.

In rough conditions, I've a short three foot tether on the mast that hooks up to my harness when I get to the reef position because the six foot tether allows enough length to go over the side (not wanted). All sail controls for reefing either point allow doing so from that single position near the starboard side forward on the boom near the mast.

In very rough conditions before the short tether was installed at the mast and the main was loose footed turning the boom into a hand rail, I'd scoot on fanny to the reefing position and wrap one leg around the vang to insure staying on top of boat. Loose footing and the short tether was the answer for me. I feel very confident of not going go over the side, which allows use of both hands to effect reefing.

I like Bills use of the tack hook though personally I don't have one... I simply have two lines made to mains'l tack bail running through the reef tacks and back down to the upper starboard mast horn cleat of course cleating whichever reef position is chosen.

Other elements to provide for all sail management from this one position is a horn cleat forward on starboard side of the boom... it cleats the 2nd reef clew line that leads forward along the boom from the cheek block as depicted in the pic above.

Finally, I robbed the port mast cheek block that Catalina provided for the single line jiffy reef and repositioned it low on starboard side of mast. The in boom line for the 1st reef clew runs down through this block and is redirected back up to the lower horn cleat on the mast. The advantage of this is significant and came about after some trial. It was hard to haul down on that line as it came out of the boom and pull the clew to good position, whereas by running it through a block low and then hauling up to the cleat rather than down at the cleat, the task is much easier. You can imagine the difference in power between pulling up with feet braced compared to relying on arm weight pulling down.

In my opinion, if you use an in the boom line for both reefs, both should be handled in this way, by directing them down to cheek blocks on the mast and then up to horn cleats so as to obtain pull leverage.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

N/E Texas and Great Lakes
Arlyn's Sailing Site

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 02/07/2010 09:30:26
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bill bosworth
Navigator

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Response Posted - 02/11/2010 :  16:34:39  Show Profile
Arlyn's description of the in boom reefing lines is spot on, and is exactly how I rigged mine. The origional position of the cheek blocks on the mast was to high and had a bad lead angle into the boom. I fully agree with Arlyn, that pulling up on the line makes it fairly easy to properly tension the reefed clue.

Bill c250wb #134 Serendipity
on Kerr Lake NC

Bill c250wb #134
Kerr Lake, NC
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Ray Seitz
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Barbados
416 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2010 :  07:52:47  Show Profile
quote:
Randy, there are two methods to deal with the clew. One is to add a cheek block to the boom either directly or on a track at the point to pull the clew to the correct down and aft position. The line will then lead forward through a couple of eye straps to a horn cleat forward on the boom or if wanted through a cheek block forward on the boom, down through a turning block at the mast base and through deck organizers to a clutch or cleat.

I believe the cheek block method is the way our sailing instructor had his second reef set up with a sheep's horn on the tack. I have the horn on the tack but use something similar to what you have pictured on the clew (but not through the boom), with a short piece of line I keep at the ready. I just use shock cord for the lines along the boom which are always in the sail. It is true that you have to go topside to get the tack in the horn but it doesn't seem to take longer than a couple of minutes. I usually put the second reef in very early because the jib can still be increased somewhat if additional sail is needed and adjusted easier.

In the Garage-Near Lake Erie, Marblehead, OH
C250 WB Sea Major #628

Edited by - Ray Seitz on 02/18/2010 07:55:45
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windsong
Captain

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Response Posted - 02/22/2010 :  12:45:44  Show Profile  Send windsong an AOL message  Click to see windsong's MSN Messenger address
Our local rigger took a look at my reef points and re-rigged them using what he called, "double clew reefing." (New Glenans Sailing Manual, page 369). Well, I'll be damned, the clew on the second reef point comes down onto the boom effortlessly now, without the addition of a cheek block on the boom. I'm sure there are plenty of sailors on this forum who know to rig a reef line this way, but it was new to me. I had merely imitiated the way I have seen it on almost every boat I've ever sailed on, which brings the reef line from the sheave at the back of the boom up to the clew, then down to the boom. In fact, on Sunday I was on my friend's Beneteau 376 and, with his permission, re-rigged one of his reef points with double-clew reefing. He was skeptical, but by the end of the day, he had re-rigged his other two reef points the same way. For those of you who don't have Glenans lying around, here's a sketch:



Michael Hetzer
"Windsong"
2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984
Myrtle Beach, SC

Edited by - windsong on 02/22/2010 14:13:42
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Tradewind
Captain

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Response Posted - 02/22/2010 :  16:22:30  Show Profile
I like that idea Windsong, but I'm not sure I have enough sheaves, I have one for the first reef and one for the topping lift, I don't think there's a third. How did you solve that?

1998 250WK #331
CILCIA
Steve
Pensacola, FL
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windsong
Captain

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Response Posted - 02/22/2010 :  23:32:29  Show Profile  Send windsong an AOL message  Click to see windsong's MSN Messenger address
Ah, my boom includes three sheaves.


Michael Hetzer
"Windsong"
2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984
Myrtle Beach, SC
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windsong
Captain

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Response Posted - 04/09/2010 :  14:27:19  Show Profile  Send windsong an AOL message  Click to see windsong's MSN Messenger address
More on the value of the second reef point. I was out today in 18kts blowing relentlessly, and I even measured one gust at 31 mph - typical day here for the last 6 months. Yet I sailed the whole day with very little heel and in control using the second reef and just a touch of headsail. I shot a video, which you can see here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZZt3m_IZBQ
The video shows the rig a bit. I installed single-line reefing on both reef points, which makes dealing with this kind of wind MUCH easier when I'm alone. Looking at the video, it's almost comical how little sail is up, yet in the clip I'm trucking along at 5.5 kts. Sail shape is terrible, not much I can do about that, so I rarely topped 5.5 kts.
These are really remarkable little boats.


Michael Hetzer
"Windsong"
2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984
Myrtle Beach, SC

Edited by - windsong on 04/09/2010 14:36:25
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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/10/2010 :  04:57:07  Show Profile  Visit Arlyn Stewart's Homepage  Send Arlyn Stewart an AOL message  Send Arlyn Stewart a Yahoo! Message
I think what Trade Wind might have been saying is that there are two sheaves available considering the given that the outhaul is using one.

And both of those are in use by the topping lift and 1st reef. Counting the outhaul, there are three?


Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

N/E Texas and Great Lakes
Arlyn's Sailing Site
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