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Need advice: Moisture under mast step

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/25/2010 : 17:23:37

Today we had a 1998 C250WK surveyed for purchase. I need to make a decision whether to proceed with purchase, but I do not have as complete information as I would like. There are several reasons why time is of the essence here, so I'm looking for your advice around whether this boat is an acceptable risk.

During the survey, we found moisture in an interior starboard halogen light - the red/bronze colored one that's just to the right of the compression post. It appears that the moisture is either coming in from the masthead electrical connector or vhf antenna wire, both of which penetrate the deck just to the right of the mast. It's also possible that the moisture is coming through a poorly sealed mast step, and with some searching I found this thread on how to address that problem: http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20038

I know I will eventually be able to stop the leaking. But I am more concerned about the extent of the damage, if any, around the compression post. There were small drops of water running down the compression post and collecting at the flange where the post meets the sole, so the core material around the top of the compression post is probably wet too.

The thread I linked above seems to imply that the compression post passes all the way through the ceiling core and is welded directly to the mast step. Could someone confirm that this is true, and that there is not rotting plywood bearing the mast's load between the compression plate and the mast step?

If the post is welded directly to the mast step, then what is the core material in that small space around the compression post? Is it wood, solid fiberglass, or some other more rot-resistant material? If it is a rot resistant and/or impenetrable material, could I simply remove the halogen lamps and blow air up there (through the hollow cavity around the lamps) to dry things out? Obviously if it is rotting plywood, it would need to be cut out and replaced. If it bears the weight of the mast, I'd need to do this ASAP. If the post goes through this and directly to the mast step, I might have a little more time to fix this.

I should mention that I have seen 4 or 5 Catalina 250s over the last 6 months, and virtually every one had some water in that same halogen light (and always the starboard one, interestingly enough). So I believe this is a problem that others have dealt with before, and would greatly appreciate your advice on it.

I need to make a go-no go decision on this in the next 16 hours. The current owner is taking a hard stance on negotiating, so I basically need to decide to take it or leave it at the price we've negotiated. And given that the other C250s I have seen appeared to have the same problem, it's not like I'm going to go out and find another one that does not have a similar problem.

Edit: I neglected to mention that the marina's fiberglas repair guy is out until Monday, so we weren't able to get a quotation on repairing this work. Unfortunately we have to have the boat out of the marina by Sunday or pay $50/day transient slip fees, so looking for your advice in the meantime.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 03/26/2010 04:44:17

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2010 : 17:59:54

Rick,
I've pulled the compression post out of my '97 boat and epoxy sealed the hole as have a couple of other folks. It's about a 4' long piece of stainless steel pipe that directly supports the mast from the sole, there's no plywood or anything else in between, except some caulking at the deck joint. Removing and resealing it is not that big of a job. The post is held into place with four bolts through the coach roof (this was actually where my leaks were, not so much on the post itself). I also had the leakage on the starboard light. The compression post is not welded to the sole, it's a slip fit on another stubby stainless pipe. The post lifts right off of it and slips out the top of the coach roof. You have to remove the table to do so, but this isn't a big job either. I let mine sit in the sun for several weeks (such as it is here in the PNW) to dry out, and then I painted the inside of the plywood (mostly) and fiberglass (deck & overhead) with a couple of coats of West System epoxy.

It takes two people to get it out, or at least it did with mine, and a 2x4 to break the original caulking free by rotating the tabernacle (where the mast step is). Half an hour to clean up the excess caulk from the deck and underside of the step plate, some new 4200 and new bolts and you're good to go.

It also takes two people to get it back in, although gravity's on your side. Getting the bolts lined up was trickier than I thought it would be, but once they are, it's pretty easy from then on.

Have you sounded around the deck at the mast step? Thumping it with a screwdriver will give you a good idea of how solid it is. If there doesn't seem to be any delamination judging by the sound, the repair to stop the leak can be easily done in a day except if you want to leave the hole open for a while to dry out.

The halogen light I cleaned up, re-made all the connections (I have a 12 volt socket right next to it as well), and have had no further problems (and it rains a lot here).

I have no idea what it would cost to have this work done by someone else, but it's really something you could easily tackle yourself, unless there's major damage, in which case you'd definitely want to talk to the fiberglass guy if you've never done glass work (and beat up the owner for the price of the work).

Hopefully this answered your questions, but if not, feel free to give me a call at four two five eight nine one one nine four five and we can talk about it.

Edited by - delliottg on 03/25/2010 18:09:41

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2010 : 18:25:55

Here is a useful thread:

[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=16801&SearchTerms=compression"]Mast Support[/url]

Edited by - Nautiduck on 03/25/2010 18:33:24

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2010 : 19:22:19

Rick,
I sent you an e-mail with quite a few pictures. My picture's in Randy's link have shrunk.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2010 : 19:25:26

And those are the same photos I used for reference when I did mine. Thanks Tom.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2010 : 21:13:23

Thanks everyone for your quick and detailed responses. As I mentioned, after looking at several C250s I had thought that this was a common problem that many people had addressed. It's good to see that this is true, and that the fix is suitable for DIY. I plan to proceed with the purchase and take on this fix. Only question will be whether to do it sooner, or try to get through the season first.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 03/26/2010 : 08:17:19

Congratulations Rick!

Edited by - on

watercayman
1st Mate

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Cayman Islands
49 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2010 : 19:06:56

Congratulations on your purchase, Rick.

Having just done exactly this job about a month ago I have one small item to add. (By the way - if I can do this, anyone can - I just needed help getting the mast down while on the water).

On mine, it wasn't the seal around the compression post, but one single bolt that seemed to have been the culprit. My guess is that somehow the bolt was a bit too long and the acorn nut just didn't snug up enough, which allowed the old seal to break -- probably on a jibe. So, I added a normal nut above the acorn on that bolt and then put the acorn on the bottom. The irony for me was the only leak on the boat was a single bolt that I had to bring down the whole mast for!

Anyway - check the bolts for a snug fit - if way too loose that could have potentially broken the 4200 (or whatever) under the bolt head. I believe the post is meant to prevent lateral movement of the mast, so the bolts shouldn't be super tight, but in my case one was so loose it created the problem.

Mike

Edited by - watercayman on 03/26/2010 22:02:13

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2010 : 15:20:14

Just a quick update:

I think I have solved the leak problem without removing the compression post. There is a (metal) though-fitting for a masthead VHF antenna that is directly next to the (plastic) electrical connector for the masthead lights. The two push up against each other, and appeared that the metal fitting was "winning" this battle, causing the plastic fitting to distort and break the bedding. I could see a ~1/64" crack through which a significant amount of water. So I removed the electrical connector, removed all the old caulk, and rebedded it with a thick enough bead of fast-cure 4200 to allow the connector to avoid a collision with the VHF connector. I left it loose for a day, then tightened down after it had cured.

Just for good measure, I also applied "Creeping Crack Cure" all around the edge of the mast step and to the four screw heads holding down the mast step (which were just barely accessible with the mast up). I also applied the stuff to a hairline gelcoat crack radiating from the electrical connector (and which I think was caused by the tangential pressure of the VHF connector pressing against it).

I have the overhead dinette lights removed for ventilation, a fan blowing air into the overhead cavity, and a dehumidifier sucking out any moisture the fan circulates.

We had a heavy, wind-blown rain a couple days ago, and I got on the boat right as the rain was ending. Everything was bone dry - not a sign of leakage anywhere. So I think I have this problem licked, and will be able to wait until the end of the season before dropping the mast. I'm going to continue drying everything out as much as I can.

Any suggestions for a product that does a good job of removing rust stains? I'd like to eradicate any signs of the prior leakage.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2010 : 16:54:35

Some of our fellow owners suggested to me when I had gross leaf stains. Sunshine, and it worked.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2010 : 19:29:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bear
 Some of our fellow owners suggested to me when I had gross leaf stains. Sunshine, and it worked.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The rust stains are on the nuts/washers for the four bolts through the mast step, and a little bit on the surrounding ceiling liner. Last I checked, there's not a whole lot of sunlight down there.

I cannot replace or loosen the nuts/washers, because I can't get a phillips-head screwdriver into the screw heads with the mast up. So I'm simply looking to polish off as much of the surface rust as I can for now.

Also, rust stains and leaf stains are two very different things. Leaf stains are organic, and easily broken down by UV exposure. Iron oxide is commonly used as a pigment, and would not be broken down by sunlight even if this area had sun exposure. So a polishing material is probably needed.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2010 : 19:32:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 Any suggestions for a product that does a good job of removing rust stains? I'd like to eradicate any signs of the prior leakage.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Various bathroom cleaners do a pretty good job. Check their labels.

Congrats on curing the leak... I have a similar one that I suspect is starting around the dome of my anchor light and following a wire through my radar platform down through the hardtop and then back to a dome light in the helm area. Water is relentless!

Edited by - on

528
Navigator

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USA
181 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2010 : 04:57:23

Bar Keepers Friend, $2 at the grocery store. It's Oxalic acid based and removes rust stains like magic. You won't be disappointed. Let it set a minute to react with the oxidation, then scrub like a sink stain.

Edited by - on

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