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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Rudder damage

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/27/2012 : 10:38:37

Below are pics of the C22 rudder I use for racing. I recently noticed the crack in the pics, under the lower pintle, probably caused by shallow water at a launch ramp (I do remember scraping once when the lake was at winter pool). Does this look fixable, to those of you who have dealt with kind of problem, or is the rudder toast?

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/27/2012 10:39:31

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2012 : 10:59:12

The lower pintle is the point of highest stress on the blade (even when it's not being dragged on a ramp

), so your risk is heightened. The head of the older (unbalanced) C-25 rudder is cored with wood, and that looks like a similar construction. Can you feel into the core with a piece of wire to determine whether the core is broken, or see it from the bolt hole? If it is, it might be argued that epoxy could be run into the wood--I'd say that might work, or it might give you an unpleasant surprise--no rudder just when you need it most--a bad feeling. The fiberglass shell alone is not meant to stand up to the stress there. If the wood held while the shell cracked (remotely possible), it could be repairable. But noting that the crack goes 2/3 of the width of the blade, I'm not optimistic.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2012 : 11:15:23

The depth of the crack is what has me worried. I thought about lowering the pintles an inch so the crack would be between them, but that raises the rudder an inch and I'm afraid that would put the tiller too close to the traveler bar.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2012 : 11:51:31

I agree with Dave, if the shell is the only cracked part, it's likely repairable. If the wood cracked with it, you could possibly repair it with a butterfly joint epoxied in (and thin epoxy flowed into the rest of the crack), but I'm not sure I'd advise it. Butterfly joints are designed to keep wood from splitting, but not in high stress joints like a cracked rudder, think more dinner table. Before I spent the time trying to repair the wood, I'd be more likely to construct a new rudder out of plywood & glass it in. If you used waterproof plywood (BS 1088), it'd quite likely outlast the boat.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2012 : 12:25:10

Thanks, guys. Making a rudder would be quite a project. Got to think about that one considering the limited tools I have.

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/27/2012 12:31:03

OJ
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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2012 : 12:42:53

I scanned the above for the word "rot" and didn't see it.

If it were mine - I'd open the crack with a straight saw blade (like a bandsaw or power hand held jigsaw.) Fill with some West System epoxy with a bonding filler - see this:

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/use-guides/

You could sand/grind off the gel coat and wrap the head with fiberglass. IOW, make the repaired area stronger than new.

Sand smooth, re-gelcoat or paint.

If you discover rot it's probably (naturally) a write-off.

Good luck!

Edited by - OJ on 04/27/2012 12:46:20

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2012 : 15:06:26

My tools are limited. However, I do have a jigsaw, and I could open it up with that. I would doubt that there is rot in there. The boat has seen limited use in the last 2-3 years as I have been crewing with another fleet member. He recently moved up to a Capri 26 and just put his C-22 up for sale, so I may have to start racing mine again.

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2012 : 16:25:13

Was this ever repaired before? In the lower photo on the leading edge in front of the bolt hole It looks like the seam has been smoothed over or epoxied and sanded. In the top photo that crack goes deep into the bolt hole suggesting to me that the core may be cracked.

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dmpilc
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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2012 : 16:47:54

Can't say if it was ever repaired before. I bought it from a kid who bought a derelict C-22 and, with his dad, parted it out. I think I paid $100, maybe $150, for the rudder about 5 years ago, along with solid teak hatch boards. It is heavy, so it has to be one of the original C-22 blade rudders. My original rudder is a kick-up.

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/27/2012 16:49:35

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2012 : 18:37:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 I scanned the above for the word "rot" and didn't see it...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ya, I didn't mention that possibility... If you found that, whether the crack was there or not, it would be time for a new rudder. Almost every failure I've heard of was at the lower pintle, generally due to deteriorated core there.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2012 : 19:04:23

Consider it toast!

Then, you can cut into it without fear and if the core is in good shape, then do the fiber glass repair.

If it is toast, then you have already begun the recycling process

Paul

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2012 : 14:57:53

Okay, I'm trying a repair. I found 2 small West System fiberglass repair kits in my garage. One should be enough. The core doesn't look rotted. Using a power multi-tool, I ground out the cracks on the sides, kinda deep, and the crack on the leading edge all the way to the bolt hole. Next I vacuumed up the grinder dust and taped the sides and hole openings with masking tape. Then, I mixed up the 2-part epoxy and poured it into the crack slowly, working it into the cracks. Hopefully, it will work its way all the way to the bottom. After it hardens, I'll remove the tape and redrill the bolt hole and clean it up cosmetically. I didn't use a jig saw because the two cracks did not line up very well.
Hopefully, that will do it, at least for a while.

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/30/2012 19:00:58

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2012 : 19:55:36

That might be OK for inland lake sailing. If you were in a place with big chop (2-3'+), I'd say don't play games.

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dmpilc
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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2012 : 15:12:59

All I will be doing with the blade rudder is lake sailing/racing. If we ever take Shadowfax to the gulf again, I'll pack the kick-up rudder. And I'll be a lot more careful at the ramp. Anyway, maybe I've bought myself a year, perhaps 2. The epoxy seems to have soaked in pretty good. It took the whole batch; I had almost none left over. I drilled out the bolt hole today and reinstalled the pintle. So far, so good. Keeping my fingers crossed, and for the next few sails, I may keep the other rudder on board as a back-up.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2012 : 16:32:13

Did you take any photos while you were doing the repair? I'd be interested to see any you may have, as well as the finished product.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 04/30/2012 : 18:55:51

Sorry, I didn't think to take 'in process' pics, but here are 2 'finished' pics and one showing the tool I used. Unfortunately, the bracket covers up a lot of the break. Using the round blade on the tool, I ground out the crack up both sides of the rudder deep enough to get into the wood core, and across the leading edge completely to the bolt hole. Compare the before and after pics to the extent you can. Then, as I mentioned above, I used a little repair kit from west Systems to mix up a little 2-part epoxy (kit has 2 sets of packets - open 1 of each part and mix together. Then I poured the epoxy into the crack. It took the entire batch I mixed up.
The next day (yesterday) I drilled out the bolt hole and reinstalled the pintle, sealing the bolts on both sides with clear silicone.

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/30/2012 19:02:55

TakeFive
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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2012 : 19:17:28

Most epoxies have very poor UV stability, and will turn brown and rough with sun exposure. You might want to consider topcoating your repair to prevent this.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 04/30/2012 : 20:44:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Nice work David - and as Rick says above - epoxy doesn't like UV.

The blades on the Chicago Multi-Tool look as flimsy as the ones that come with the Fein.

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dmpilc
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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2012 : 05:13:34

Thanks, Rick. I'll go over it with some white touch-up paint that I have for my car.

I haven't tried the straight blades on the multi-tool yet. The round blade seemed quite substantial, however.

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2012 : 10:17:14

If you don't care to much how it looks I would have drilled a relief hole at the end of the crack and filled it with epoxy then put 4 stainless straps, 2 on each side vertically under the pintle bolts spanning the crack and through bolting the ends of the straps. Also silicone is not a good choice for water proofing the bolts.

Edited by - islander on 05/01/2012 10:26:00

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2012 : 16:33:36

I've covered the exposed crack lines with two coats of touch-up paint. If there is any more expansion of the crack, it will show up quickly in the paint. I had thought about reinforcement straps, but wasn't sure how to straddlethe pintle straps.

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