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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Attaching snap shackle to halyard

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JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/01/2012 : 21:17:00

OK, if you haven't noticed, I'm lazy. I am always looking for the shortest route to get something done. But I'm also pretty anal, and if the longest route is truly the best route, then I'll take it. So, with that in mind...

I bought an asym spinnaker and have most of the hardware ready to go. I just purchased some line to use as a halyard, and I want to attach the line to my snap shackle. I've done a few splices now, and feel comfortable doing them, but I don't like the permanent nature of a splice when it has a captured object like a shackle. I may decide I want a different type of shackle, or find that the rope is wearing faster than I'd like, for example, so I'd really prefer to be able to get the shackle off without having to significantly shorten the length of the rope (thus allowing me to repurpose it). I currently have a bowline tied to the end of the shackle. Is that a good knot for these purposes? Or am I better off attaching the shackle with a splice?

- Jim
Formerly of 1984 C25 named Dragon Wing

NOTE: In my case, PLEASE don't confuse stars/number of posts with actual knowledge. On any topic.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 05/01/2012 : 21:30:03

Jim, a bowline should work just fine, that's what my halyards are attached to my shackles with. I don't use snap shackles though, I use ones like this:

so even if you did put in an eyesplice (and I'm a fan of them) you'd still be able to get the shackle off.

Edited by - delliottg on 05/02/2012 10:17:14

JimGo
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Response Posted - 05/01/2012 : 21:34:06

I have one of those on my main halyard, and I really prefer that type (though purely because of its simplicity). The snap shackle on my jib just seemed stronger to me, though, so that's why I was leaning in that direction. If this kind of shackle is OK for the spin and jib, I may switch 'em both out.

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 03:51:57

Two half hitches, opposite directions. stopper knot at end. Or just burn the end to a big bulb. Not a critical knot and you stare at it every time you hank.

IMHO

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 03:56:19

http://www.jeanneau-owners2.com/hintsandtips/id137.htm

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Ape-X
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 04:27:20

animated knots dot com shows some very basic knots....I was surprised to learn the bowline is not a secure knot without load....makes sense when you think about it, but I had never considered. So I would choose a different knot other than bowline for the halyard and sheets..

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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 04:39:15

Thanks Prospector! My newest favorite Knot..

Funny that looks like two round turns and a half hitch.( I can't spell Jeanneau, but it is fun to say )

?? and then sometimes you add a plastic ball above it to keep the masthead from eating the line ??

Edited by - redeye on 05/02/2012 04:44:46

Prospector
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 05:42:21

@redeye - You can get around that problem by seizing the bitter end to the halyard. Leave about 2" and seize the last 1" or so, just get it nice and tight.

Of course if your marlinkspike ain't great, you can always use what we were taught as "American Whipping" when I was a kid (wrap it in rigging tape).

I use that knot, it will not loosen (ever), which is a mixed blessing.

Since we are talking Marlinspike stuff here, here's everything you ever need to know about whipping, splicing, canvas repairs, wire rope, etc... http://compass.seacadets.org/pdf/nrtc/sn/14067_ch3.pdf

Edited by - Prospector on 05/02/2012 06:35:17

JimGo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 06:19:05

I like the Sea Cadets link - thanks!

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 06:29:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 http://www.jeanneau-owners2.com/hintsandtips/id137.htm
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's a very neat and useful-looking knot. My only concern is whether it can be untied reasonably easily after it has been under load? If it can't, then you would probably be better off splicing the line. If you must cut it off to re-purpose the line, you'd lose less line if it was spliced.

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 06:34:30

You got it pegged Steve. Works great for what its for, but its there forever.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 07:18:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 Two half hitches, opposite directions...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
For decades this has always been my favorite knot for semi-permanent attachment - very compact and secure, and uses less line than a bowline. I'm glad to see that someone else uses it also.

The only downside is it can be a little tough to untie, but for stuff that I tie once a year it's great. I see so many sources that say to do the half hitches in the same direction, but I think alternating directions makes the knot much more compact and secure.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ape-X
 animated knots dot com shows some very basic knots....I was surprised to learn the bowline is not a secure knot without load...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Great site! I've never had a bowline release on me - I think you need to push on it to get it to release. This makes the bowline easy to untie if you push in on the working end (the part that would ordinarily be in tension). It makes bowline a good option for less permanent loops.

Edited by - TakeFive on 05/02/2012 07:23:11

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 07:38:29

Bowline and lash the bitter end. I have never seen a bowline fail, regardless of the warnings, and minimal lashing makes it impossible. It is generally accepted as having the least impact on line strength (not really significant here) and is always easy to release. If you are going to use a knot that jams, then do an eye splice. I actually use a core to core eye splice on my vectran-100 halyards.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 05/02/2012 07:46:37

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 08:05:52

<< Works great for what its for, but its there forever. >>

Still.. great knot for being small and using little line, even if you have to cut it off..

The cadets link rocks.

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 08:24:49

<< been my favorite knot >>

A round turn and two half hitches ( opposite directions )

The last half hitch facing you ( coming up toward you )

Easy to push ( the bitter end ) down and away from you and open up the knot.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 08:38:12

And I'd guess some people would probably suggest a version of the anchor bend for the end of the halyard if you were trying to save the line...

Essentially a round turn and two half hitches, with the first half hitch going into the round turn.

But anyhoo... I likes Jeanneau Halyard Knot with a seize..

( Ok maybe I can spell it, next you'll have me eating french food )

Now... anybody wanna suggest the lightest snap shackle I can use that may not whack me in the head when I'm yankin down the jib in a storm?

I'm using the smallest lightest aluminum carabiner style I could find with a captive ring on the halyard side.

Jim.. What are you using?

Edited by - redeye on 05/02/2012 08:40:50

JimGo
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 09:34:45

Ray, I'm leaning heavily to switching away from the snap shackle to the halyard shackle in David's picture (the 2nd post) above. I'm just not a fan (so far) of snap shackles. I think they are hard to open, and tend to seize. I like the simplicity of the other type of shackle.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 10:11:03

I use that type on the main halyard, but it takes two hands to operate. I much prefer a biner type snap on the bow as it can be done with one hand and I need one to hold on when the bow is pitching. IMHO.

I wish the hanks were one handed.

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 10:14:36

Also not a fan of a snap shackle. I have had 3 of them fail on me.

We have now switched to using the type David showed.

Ours failed when the ball bearing holding the pin in place let go, and the pin shot out of the shcakle, never to be found again. When that happens much swearing follows. After three failures (all the same) I decided enough was enough.

These are the shackles that failed us: http://file.seekpart.com/productsimage/2011/12/16/20111216135256139.jpg

Edited by - Prospector on 05/02/2012 10:15:21

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 10:26:11

I've had the same thing happen with one shackle, not exactly sure what failed, but the retaining pin came out causing it to just sort of fall apart. I was able to find replacement parts for it at WM or Fisheries, don't remember which and repair it. It was on our port lifeline gate, so it wasn't anything catastrophic, or maybe it was one of our babystays? I remember thinking "it could have been worse".

I like the simplicity of the halyard shackles shown above although they're not as easy to work as a snap shackle, especially one handed. However, we only have them on our main & jib halyards, we've left a regular snap shackle on the spinnaker halyard so it's easy to clip/unclip into your harness if you go forward in iffy conditions. Makes it much harder to go overboard if you're restrained from above with a halyard.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 10:32:58

http://www.ronstan.us/marine5/product.asp?ProdNo=RF6000

I have use one of these without failure.

http://www.ronstan.us/marine5/product.asp?prodno=RF652

I'm using one of these now and I likes it a lot.

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 10:58:07

I use the shackle shown above for both main and jib halyards, tied with a bowline. I haven't had a bowline knot on a halyard fail on me in 35 years of sailing. Some of our C22 racers don't even use a shackle, just tie the halyard directly to the sail's head grommet with a bowline. That much less weight aloft! Yeah, some of those guys are pretty anal about that. For about a year, I tried 3/16" Ultra-tech line for halyards, very low stretch and 2k lbs breaking strength, and did not use a shackle with them. Did I mention anal? LOL. It was the same thickness as the wire in the old halyards. I changed to the 1/4" NovaTech line last fall. It's also very low stretch but stays put in the clutches better, and it is also easier on the hands.

I use the snap shackle with swivel and clevis pin at the bowstem for the headsail tack.
I was under the impression that spinnakers worked better with swivel shackle on the halyard. Isn't the same true for an asym?

Edited by - dmpilc on 05/02/2012 11:12:47

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 11:01:53

David - Do you have a furler or hank-on headsail? For the furler halyard I don't have any hardware at all - I just tie off with the two half-hitches, alternating direction. Since I only do it once or twice a year, I thought that hardware would only add weight, chafe, corrosion, and a potential failure point.

I have the same lightweight two-handed twist shackle as you for the main and (unused) jib halyard.

I had not thought of using the unused jib halyard as a jackline substitute. I'll have to get a harness to facilitate that, and also consider switching it to a shackle that can be released under load. I also need to find a cam cleat or something to attach to the mast base to secure/adjust the jib halyard for an application such as this.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 12:33:59

We don't have a furler, our jibs are hanked on.

The extra halyard as a "jackline" idea came from one of the Sail compendium books I bought. It seems like it was a Lin & Larry Pardey article, but don't quote me. I think we've only done it about three times, but I feel a whole lot better if Rita's clipped into the halyard if it's rough and she's taking down the jib. We try very hard to stay to the "one hand for the boat, one for you" rule, but she's pointed out that I break that rule frequently, so that's one of the habits I'm trying to break.

All of our lines are led aft to the cockpit, so if one of us is up there, the other can adjust the length of the line or upward tension depending on the conditions and need by using the clutch.

I realized that we don't have a pull lanyard on the snap shackle, it's just a bare circular cotter, I'll have to mend that next time I'm down at the boat, it'd be hard to easily release yourself if you can't get your fingers around that little ring to pull on it. I've been doing some rope work on other stuff, so it'll be easy to put a [url="http://www.animatedknots.com/cobra/index.php?Categ=decorative&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com"]lanyard knot[/url] on there.

Edited by - delliottg on 05/02/2012 12:36:34

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 15:24:56

One thing to consider regarding the difference between a snap shackle and a halyard shackle, especially when used on a spinnaker, is the overall weight of the shackle. The halyard shacle is usually considerably lighter.

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