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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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C25 rusty keel bolts fixed keel

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Johnny Whaler
1st Mate

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30 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/27/2006 : 22:22:02

I have some rusty keel nuts and bolts on my 1980 C25. I hear several stories and just recently found this great site. Am I correct in saying my keel is cast iron? Am I also corect in saying that it is not glassed over but only about 12" from the bottom of the hull?

My bolts and nuts are petty bad. I'd dream to have them look liek the poster who has the 1989 with a glaze on them! I wouls say the nuts are 40-50% gone. I can still see some of the edges of the nuts. The bolts are still thick but the threads look shot. I need to wire wheel them to see the extent.

I know they will need attention down the line. This boat is remarkably dry. Has anyone known of a fixed keel falling off a C25? How bad is bad before you should replace them? I see a retro fit kit that consists of lag bolts and a drill bit. I can't see driving a 1/2" lag into cast iron. I almost want to just leave it alone other than treating the rust and coating the cleaned bolts. I would think it would take a lot to have this keel fall off? ANY opinions are greatly appreciated!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 07:41:53

Hey Johnny, welcome.
I am very pleased with my keel bolts but they are Stainless and I don't think yours are.

You are correct that you have an iron keel on a fiberglass stub. I have never heard of a fin keel falling off, you don't mention where your boat is sailed, salt or fresh.
I am certain someone with more knowledge will respond in greater detail.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 07:51:53

I'm no expert, but from what I've heard and read, you can't just replace the bolts. Your keel is indeed cast iron with mild steel bolts--in about '84 Catalina switched to a lead keel with stainless steel bolts. Your bolts won't come out--you would need to add bolts by drilling and tapping--a HUGE job that is probably best left to a pro with the necessary large-scale drill-press. If that's Milford you're in, you should be able to find some professional advice. Somebody here on this forum had new bolts installed a few years ago...

Meanwhile, I'd consider using some rust-reformer on the nuts to slow the damage, and then put some goop on them to seal them up. Brushing them will just expose more good metal to the elements. Also, with the boat on the hard, take a look at the exterior keel-hull joint--if you see it opening up and/or weeping, that suggests attention might be more urgent. But I haven't heard of one coming off a C-25. (Just a couple of other older boats.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/28/2006 07:58:05

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 08:50:01

The retrofit 'kit' for the iron keel has long shank drill bits and a long shank tap for cutting new threads.
It's not a trivial task... but IMHO do-able with some strength, patience and a modicum of experience working with metal.

There are lots of creative ways to rig up a 'poor man's drill press' using blocking and a 2x4 for applying leverage to the drill motor.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 08:50:51

Johnny,
My 78 has the exact same keel and rusty bolts. Though they are rusted away somewhat I have had no indication they are not doing there job. No water leakage or smile around the keel joint is evident. I called CD about the bolt kit and was told it was their intention for their kit to be used in a hand drill but they offer no written directions of any kind. Probably the old "anything you say may be used against you in a court of law" syndrome. The only person I know of who has had additonal bolts installed was Jim Baumgart and he had them done by someone who specializes in that type of work. I have never seen a post on this forum by anyone who bought the CD kit and installed it. That's not to say it is a bad option, just unchartered territory. Another reason I have not acted on it is 99% of the sailing I do here on the west coast is deep water. The risk of my encountering a hard grounding is minimal. Your situation may be different. However I believe the bolts are restricting a vertical force and a grounding would be more of a lateral force. Please let us know if you decide to go forward with the CD kit. I, for one, would like to hear someones experience with it.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 11:29:23

I had mine sistered by a professional with a portable drill press, carbide bits, and lots of time. It took about a day to drill, tap, and insert each new bolt. Along the original, very rusted bolts I now have 6 new, 3/4 inch, stainless bolts threaded in to a depth of 6 inches or more. Because of various delays, the whole job took 2 weeks, was done in the water, and cost $900. The seller paid for it when I bought the boat, mine failed survey due to the very bad originals.

Edited by - on

Johnny Whaler
1st Mate

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30 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 13:06:51

Great info folks! Thanks! I am in Milford CT and in salt water.

I realy don't have any water coming in. I see a slight crack on parts of the keel where the glass meets the iron but nothing unusual and I am bone dry inside the boat. I had the owner of the Marina where I am wintering the boat look at the kel and he said it is nothing to worry about at this point. I have plenty of meat left on the bolts. I was wondering if the Locktite rust converter is an option just sprayer on or if I should wire brush them and then coat them with the locktite and a good rust preventer paint? I'm leaning otward a good cleaning. What a shame they didn't use stainless bolts.

Thanks again...great site here for sure!

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 14:54:09

Any of the products that convert rust to a hardened sealant should work fine. You won't be removing them so gunking them up shouldn't be a problem.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 16:10:57

They treated my old bolts with carbolic acid, then coated them in bitumen.

The carbolic acid solidified the rust.

The bitumen is kind of like road asphalt, it covered everything like epoxy.

There is no way the old bolts are ever coming out.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 18:29:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Johnny Whaler
 I hear several stories and just recently found this great site. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Jim,

Welcome to the forum, Jim.

You'll find this forum to be much more active than the other one where you first posted this question.

Again, welcome aboard.

Edited by - on

Johnny Whaler
1st Mate

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30 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 18:42:36

This is the best, I can't believe I didn't find it on my own. I am hoping to add as much as I take from it.

I needed this badly being new to sailing. I have been a boater for 30+ years but recently got "talked" into buying a sailboat by my wife. It was a great summer and we (I) learend a lot. My wife was supposed to teach me- that was the deal but I took such a liking to it that I ended up becoming the teacher.

I'm still a rookie but I single handed her last year a few times with no problems. I was in Bridgeport harbor last season (cheap but lots of coal dust) and I moved to milford for winter and next season.

Spring can't get here fast enough. Don't hold it against me that I'm a powerboater! I am probably unique that I am 50/50 and enjoy both.

Thanks for the welcome and for everyone's help!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 08:34:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Johnny Whaler
 Don't hold it against me that I'm a powerboater! I am probably unique that I am 50/50 and enjoy both.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Me too...

"You can get there faster on a powerboat... On a sailboat, you're already there."

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 11:38:24

Life's about the journey, not the destination

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 19:39:43

"Life's about the journey, not the destination"

Heh, tell that to my 15 year old kid who likes to wakeboard.
Enjoyment from sailing will probably come later for him.

So there's two holes in the water for me... the powerboat goes through
more fuel ($$$) in 1 hour than the C25 uses in a year.

Edited by - on

Johnny Whaler
1st Mate

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30 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2006 : 20:51:36

I kept track this past season. I used more fuel in one afternoon fishing that I used all year on my C25. I was in Bridgeport this past season at my Club PYC. The motor would run about 2-3 minutes and you were in open water. It's Bridgeport but you are sailing in seconds once you leave the dock. Too bad we are geting thrown out by the city even though we have owned the property for over 100 years.

It's a shame that these politicians are pulling the E/D stuff on us and trying to take over our marina to build a marina. I guess this is the new "American Way" If some big developer can spend a Billion bucks and generate more tax revenue then the little guy who's been there for over 100 years is thrown a few bucks and told to move out.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2006 : 21:27:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Johnny Whaler
 ...Too bad we are geting thrown out by the city even though we have owned the property for over 100 years. It's a shame that these politicians are pulling the E/D stuff on us and trying to take over our marina to build a marina. I guess this is the new "American Way" If some big developer can spend a Billion bucks and generate more tax revenue then the little guy who's been there for over 100 years is thrown a few bucks and told to move out.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have good friends at Fayerweather YC in Bridgeport--wonder if that's under the same pressure. (Damn the Supreme Court for upholding the ridiculous New London CT E/D case last year!) Oops--political statement... Disregard!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/01/2006 21:29:59

Johnny Whaler
1st Mate

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30 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2006 : 06:45:24

From what I am hearing nothing on any of the bridgeport shoreline is safe. The funny thing is that the coal dust problem at PYC is so bad that the UI sends 3 kids over all summer long to clean the oats at PYC for FREE. They are spending a billion bucks and I can see some millionaire rom NYC stopping in Bpt on his way to Newport. He's going to wake up and go out on his deck and see foot prints in the coal dust!

There is no ay they are going to get repeat customers in there with expensive boats. If you walk outside of the confines of the club you will probably get killed.

It's just a great group of regular working class boaters in the club and it's cheap. We are the only nice thing left on this side of Bpt and because it's nice it's getting taken over.

My opinion is it still won't happen. Bpt met with the fisherman boat owner next to us and apparently they were to settle the deal and Bpt didn't have any money in the check book so that's still pending!

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2006 : 20:38:48

Interesting that the emminent domain thing is raising its ugly head. I believe its also happening in Florida as well. This year in Michigan, an enlightened electorate voted to ban the practice when developers are involved. There had been far too many instances of municiplaties taking over property for developers. I believe the new law requires (help me on this Michiganders) that the government must pay 150% of appraised value if the E/D is for a specific public project.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2006 : 10:57:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 ...I believe the new law requires (help me on this Michiganders) that the government must pay 150% of appraised value if the E/D is for a specific public project.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
There's an interesting prospect for you--if E/D makes the property worth 150% of what it's worth, that should push up its market value, whereupon it becomes theoretically worth 150% of that, which again increases the........

I think I should buy some property in Detroit (or Flint)...

Now, where were we? Rusty nuts...... Sounds like another form of E/D.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/03/2006 10:58:19

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2006 : 17:18:47

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