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Hull 922 - Initial Sailing Impressions

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Carl in LA
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USA
284 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/07/2017 : 19:30:21

Had a couple sails as of now and able to make early assessments.

Light air - 110% jib is slightly underpowered. Boat appears to be good for 3 to 4 knots in such conditions. Telltales appear confused on the main in light air (could be because I never did get any pre-bend in the mast)

In a fair breeze - beating into 12kts - she starts to scoot - easy into the 5kts range.

Beating into 15kts - she will run into the 6`s which was a pleasent surprise. She does begin to get an uncomfortable heel and I`m dumping air with the mainsheet. This with a full main... will test reefed main next.

Downwind in 10kts... boat goes 4kts with main splayed out to the side. Jib is floopping behind the main. Will test spinnaker when I have crew onboard.

Seems she just cant quite sail tight to the wind... fall off a bit and she begins to heel and goes nicely.

Handling. Unexpectedly excellent. Rudder easily overpowers keel. This thing can practically make a U-turns on a dime if you wanted to.

Raymarine ST2000 autotiller - decent beating and reaching... iffy while running. I set the gain to the lowest level as the boat is so responsive.

That tiller... Are there some sort of bushing that can make the pintles more accurate? I felt half work the autotiller did was to correct those subtle wobbles from the mushy pintle connection.

Tacking... excelcent. Push that tiller hard and quick and she's already turned. Only had one marginal tack with autotiller and that was at the peak of the wind - perhaps 17kts - even then she was in irons for only a few seconds before laying over (autotiller had a hard time understanding what was going on).

Sail handling. Decent. 110 jib flows easily across the mast. Sails are small enough the they are easily pulled and tugged. Wish the sheets could be hauled in such a way to avoid rubbing againts the shrouds - but the small boat geometry just wont let that be.

Overall "feel"... Nice boat... to be expected from a firm with 40 years of experience. No "snapping" as heeling gives you a second to grab the mainsheet. "Nimble"... handles very nicely. Wakes dont pitch you out of the boat. No spray or green water over the bow yet.

Not too shabby.

Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat

Edited by - Carl in LA on 04/08/2017 06:35:10

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2017 : 20:25:53

Upgrade your gudgeons:

http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/301/gudgeon-12-retrofit-three-bolt-hole-c-22-c-22-sport-c-25-cp-22-c-250.cfm

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2017 : 07:54:24

The upgrade gudgeons that Rick shows will take the slop out of the rudder. Also makes them quiet.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

kjk
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2017 : 14:10:20

I had a sloppy rudder as well but all I did was add the gudgeon bushing in the lower gudgeon. http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/963_687/gudgeon-bushing-only.cfm

Kevin J. Kiely
Rockport, MA
1999WK
Hull # 407

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3312 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2017 : 15:56:41

I had the same problem on TSU. I bought 2 bronze bushings from Ace Hardware and had a friend turn them on a lathe to make a snug fit.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2017 : 16:23:14

quote:
Originally posted by kjk

I had a sloppy rudder as well but all I did was add the gudgeon bushing in the lower gudgeon. http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/963_687/gudgeon-bushing-only.cfm

Beware of the part that says:

quote:
There is insufficient space in the original factory gudgeons to use these bushings. They will only work with our heavy duty gudgeons.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Carl in LA
Captain

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USA
284 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2017 : 16:45:12

I'm thinking that me and Mr. 5/8ths drill bit could fix the exiting gudgeons to accept the bushings...

quote:
Originally posted by TakeFive

quote:
Originally posted by kjk

I had a sloppy rudder as well but all I did was add the gudgeon bushing in the lower gudgeon. http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/963_687/gudgeon-bushing-only.cfm

Beware of the part that says:

quote:
There is insufficient space in the original factory gudgeons to use these bushings. They will only work with our heavy duty gudgeons.

https://goo.gl/photos/8SyDntyfoLCSyV9o7

Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat

Edited by - Carl in LA on 04/08/2017 16:56:09

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2017 : 18:45:40

It looks like you already have the upgraded version. Are there plastic bushings in there? Maybe they are missing and you just need new bushings.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 04/08/2017 18:53:33

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2017 : 18:47:31

quote:
Originally posted by Carl in LA

I'm thinking that me and Mr. 5/8ths drill bit could fix the exiting gudgeons to accept the bushings...

There's a reason why CD put that message in red bold lettering. You can try anything if you want. Drilling out the ferrule to 5/8" will probably cause it to fall off (since it's often not welded on that securely), leaving a large hole on the gudgeon that will make the bushing loose, just like you're experiencing now. (My ferrule fell off on its own, before I even got to drill it, leaving the hole too large to secure the bushing.)

Also, you will likely have a hard time getting your drill bit to go straight through the ferrule because of close clearance with the transom. So to drill straight, you'll have to remove the gudgeons. To remove the bottom one, you need to pull the battery and reach back into the rear lazarette to remove the lock nuts before unthreading the backing plate. Putting the gudgeon back on is a two-person job, since you need to have someone inside holding the backing plate while you attach the bolts from outside. If you have a holding tank back there (like I did), that will be an additional obstacle to get around. It's not an impossible job, but it's enough of a nuisance that you're likely to wish you just spent the $30 for new gudgeons to do it right the first time instead of trying a Mickey-Mouse job that you'll probably have to redo anyway.

You might want to call CD and discuss your plans. I'm just one person, but they have served dozens who may have tried what you want to try.

Your boat your choice...

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Carl in LA
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USA
284 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2017 : 19:12:12

That would take a milli-second to check when I get back down to the oat next Wednesday.

Appreciate the note.

Carl

quote:
Originally posted by islander

It looks like you already have the upgraded version. Are there plastic bushings in there? Maybe they are missing and you just need new bushings.

Also...

Found a relatively easier way to post photos...

Host your photo in google photos
Request share link for that photo
Go to this site to translate to a direct link https://ctrlq.org/google/photos/
Paste generated link in img code herein the editor...

I`m on the right.

Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2017 : 19:31:31

Carl, measure the hole in the gudgeon. If its 5/8" then there is the problem. The bushings are missing. Maybe the PO lost them and just put the rudder on without them. A 1/2" pintel in a 5/8" hole is going to result in the slop. Also put a cotter ring in the pintel. The rudders float so it could pop up and out of the gudgeons.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 04/08/2017 19:49:24

Carl in LA
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284 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2017 : 06:13:19

Another sailing day and a few more observations...

Beginning to find the limits...

And it is pretty obvious...

Intentionally set sail in the afternoon to see how she fares in higher wind speeds... the local sailing area is nicknmed Hurricane Gulch as afternoon wind blows decently hard across the west Los Angeles Harbor. Friday afternoon was no exception. Wish I had a wind speed meter but I dont - so can only guess... upper teens - perhaps low 20's...

Inside the breakwater - smooth water... with single reefed main she would sail in the upper 5 knt range with excessive heel if you let her... easing out the main maintained the speed with moderate heel. Pulling out a postage stamp size jib did not increase speed but did increase heel - no need for that.

Generally quite surprised that she could carry along relatively quickly on the single reef main.

Outside the breakwater... the Long Beach bouy reported waves in the mid 4 ft range and there were wind waves for a couple more feet when they coincided on top of each other. Forget beating into that. Under reefed main she could only muster a couple of knots and adding the postage stamp jib brought her into the three knot range. Dropping into the trough on the backside of the swell just killed the speed.

No surprise - who wants to sail into 4 ft waves anyway.

(Also a dry cockpit...splash landing into the trough generally did not send spray across the gunwale - but at two knots how much spray are you making anyway)

She needs a second reef for the main should you expect to sail upright in breezy conditions.

Overall quite pleased with her sailing behaviour.

Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat

Edited by - Carl in LA on 04/15/2017 06:28:09

kjk
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2017 : 07:22:59

Don't understand CDs warning, except that they seem to be overly sensitive to the possibility of returns. The bushing fit like a glove into my 1999 winger. Before, there was insufficient fit for the pintle. If CDs warning was correct, then I would not have been able to fit it in. I didn't have to drill or lathe anything.Its $5.00, and doesn't have the "Jack Sparrow" warning letting you know that you can't return it.

Kevin J. Kiely
Rockport, MA
1999WK
Hull # 407

kjk
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2017 : 07:25:27

Also, thanks Carl for the photo embedding app link. Its been driving me nuts to post photos without going through a laborious process.

Kevin J. Kiely
Rockport, MA
1999WK
Hull # 407

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2017 : 07:42:25

Have you tried the jib alone? It might not be as effective with a 110 as it was with our 135 genny on a C-25 (heavier boat with the mast a little further aft), but we moved very nicely that way on gusty 16-24 off-shore wind days, with very little heel, even when hit by a gust. (The CE of the headsail is considerably lower than that of the main.) Obviously you can't point as high, and tacking can be tricky at times--fall off a little for speed, then start the tack and let the jib be backwinded just long enough to push you through the center. I don't recommend it in large seas like 4'--you could lose your steerage at just the wrong time. It happened to me a few times--I released the genny, let it flog until the wind pushed the bow back, and then trimmed gradually to regain some way. But all in all, it's a nice way for a non-dramatic sail on a blustery off-shore day.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/15/2017 19:30:32

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2017 : 07:51:49

By the way, is there something weird about Google Photos? To post photos here from almost anywhere using Chrome, I right-click on the one I want, select "Copy image address", and paste it between the two "img" tags from the

button. (I did it just now to get the button.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/15/2017 07:59:29

Carl in LA
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USA
284 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2017 : 08:05:07

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Have you tried the jib alone?

Not yet - yesterday was all about learning about the reefed main. I wanted to sail the boat reefed for a few hours before installing devices for single line reefing.

That main may need to go to the loft to have a second reef added.

Perhaps next Friday will be "All About the Jib" day... expecting that the breezy conditions will prevail next week too.

Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2017 : 12:45:56

Kevin, CD's warning is about drilling out the older style. I doubt you have them. If you drilled out the older ones to increase the hole from 1/2" to 5/8" there would be very little metal left and could break. This is what they look like.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 04/15/2017 12:48:59

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2017 : 13:41:53

Yup--that looks like the factory gudgeon on the C-25, which they apparently used early on the C-250. I believe CD started selling the HD versions for both boats around the time Catalina put them on the C-250. I tried upgrading, but using the original holes, the little cylinders didn't line up well enough to my pintles, so I retrograded. The originals were plenty strong, if just a little sloppy.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

kjk
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2017 : 14:30:45

No, I figured that if I was going to have to drill, I'd do the gudgeon upgrade instead. But it popped in and we danced the funky chicken...one of the rare things on this rehab that wasn't more complicated than we thought.

Kevin J. Kiely
Rockport, MA
1999WK
Hull # 407

Carl in LA
Captain

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USA
284 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2017 : 18:22:59

At the risk of being redundant... another day on the water and more sailing impressions... today, jib only.

Jib only in super light air yielded only a couple of knots - not that the main would have added much anyway.

Later in the morning with better air - perhaps 8 knots - the little 110 jib carried us along at 4+ knots on a reach and in the threes while beating (you can't really call it beating when only sailing into 8 knots breeze). Essentially no heeling.

Just for grins I ran the sheets back to the gunwale winchs mounted for the spinnaker. No workie... would need a pair of blocks mounted somewhere to bring the sheet down to gunwale level. The 110 jib does not need to be run aft of the cabin winch.

I ran out of time before the afternoon wind picked up to the forecast 15 knot range.

I think I need that second reef in the main - perhaps with the second reef in the main plus a half jib the 250 could handle peak hurricane gulch wind which are in the lower 20 knot range.

First impressions are still that she is a great little sailer.

We shall see.

Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat

Edited by - Carl in LA on 04/21/2017 18:29:10

Carl in LA
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284 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2017 : 21:40:51

Race day... nice 12 to 15knt wind and a skipper on board with much more sailing experience than I willing to drive the boat at its limits.

Boat did fine although it was recommended to have the second reef installed on the main.

The boat held its own and covered second place on its PHRF adjusted time...

But boy did she sail heeled over... like watching the water surface just outside the windows... not my kind of sailing but I needed to see how she handled at the boundaries... again - did fine.

The Catalina 250 WK appears to be a really great little sailor.

Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat

dubedoo
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/30/2017 : 06:43:05

Good photo! By protractor I'm calculating over 35% heel. I couldn't see from the photo but did you have one reef in the main?
I've got the water ballast and I use the 2nd reef. Have been at 35% heel before....but I don't let it stay there and thank gosh for the after market Ida sailor/ruddercraft rudder.

Steve
C250 wb #702

Carl in LA
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USA
284 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2017 : 07:41:13

quote:
Originally posted by dubedoo

I couldn't see from the photo but did you have one reef in the main?

Yes... first, and only, reef was in...

Skipper had to pump the rudder to balance rounding up on that leg which exposed the boundary condition.

Sails looked great - fabric slabs with perfect tell-tales... doable for racing but heeling like that is not sustainable sailing...

Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2017 : 08:45:15

Sounds like that second reef might move you up a place! ...and in lighter air, maybe scare some faster-rated boats at the finish line!

Was your friend satisfied with your ability to flatten the main in that heavy air? A little too much draft makes a huge difference for heeling in 15 knots. The C-250, with its beamy stern, wants to be kept on her feet, and if you're fighting against round-ups (also a characteristic of a beamy stern that lifts the rudder), you're giving up a lot.

Also, in your 4/15 photo of the reefed main, I'd say it would have helped to harden the luff via more halyard tension to help flatten (depower) the sail.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/30/2017 08:53:23

Carl in LA
Captain

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USA
284 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2017 : 09:07:35

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Was your friend satisfied with your ability to flatten the main in that heavy air?

Also, in your 4/15 photo of the reefed main, I'd say it would have helped to harden the luff via more halyard tension to help flatten (depower) the sail.

Yes - the outhaul did a good job flattening as well as a using a winch to tighten the main halyard - the photo of the main from a few weeks ago the halyard was only hand tight...

The sun shimmering off that tight new sail fabric was a sight to behold.

Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat

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