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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Dock line tight or loose?

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Sublime
1st Mate

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Initially Posted - 06/19/2018 : 09:52:57

I'm on a lake so there's no tide. But we do get regular strong winds and since I'm towards the outside, get wakes from boats out on the lake.

Currently I have them on the tighter side (spring lines are more loose) but as wakes or winds kick up, the boat gets jerked around a bit (enough that sleep would be difficult) and I'm worried about the fittings getting abused.

Currently I have two bow lines, two stern lines and two spring lines (one to prevent the bow from going too far into the slip and hitting the bow and another for keeping the boat from backing out). Maybe that's too many lines?

Would you keep them tight? I'm also having to keep the boat more to one side of the slip since it's a wide slip.

Crude drawing of how my lines are currently:

Red arrow is direction of wake. Blue arrow is direction of wind.

***This post is made of recycled electrons

Edited by - Sublime on 06/19/2018 10:10:34

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/19/2018 : 10:10:41

I don't think one answer is right for everyone. If you sleep better without much slack in the lines, do it. Use any number and placement of lines that are required to keep the boat where it belongs, but no more. I keep my lines very slack in tidal waters, especially during a hurricane, when the water level will rise and fall dramatically. Use 3/8" nylon docklines. Don't use bigger lines. 3/8" nylon lines stretch and soften the jarring when the boat tugs on them. Other types of line don't have enough stretch. Oversized lines don't stretch as much. Occasionally I'll wake during the night when I sense the lines need adjustment, and I'll adjust them and go back to sleep.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

GaryB
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Response Posted - 06/19/2018 : 10:24:50

Since you have wakes I think I'd tend to keep them on the tighter side as well. If you keep them too loose the boat will tend to jerk on the cleats and during a storm may pull one completely loose. Others may have better suggestions.

I've got a wide slip as well but keep my boat centered in the slip when I'm away. I loosen the lines on one side of the slip when I'm ready to get on the boat and tighten the opposite ones so the boat is closer to one side. Once I have it where I want it I then adjust the first side to just keep the boat from hitting the dock.

I also have double lines on the four corners in case one were to break during a storm. I keep my lines with a little slack in them, not much. Where I'm located I'm subjected to winds but not so much wakes. Usually the boat will move in one direction based on the winds and the lines tend to stay more or less tight until the wind changes.

When Hurricane Ike came thru I was in a marina considered to be a hurricane hole but I pulled my lines tight so the boat couldn't hunt around during the storm. The eye went right over the marina and the only damage I had was one of the forward lower stays came undone which was my fault. I didn't have any rings to keep the turnbuckles from backing off. All I had to do was reconnect it.

EDIT: Steve's got good suggestions above.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 06/19/2018 10:26:29

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2018 : 10:57:40

I'll second Steve's recommendation for twisted nylon lines for shock absorption, although your bow and stern lines might be short enough that adding some "snubbers" might ease your mind (and potential sleeping). You might try just adding them on the side toward the wakes, since that would seem to be the pair that takes the most shock. For 3/8" dock lines, WM has them for $60 and Defender for $20. You could try price-matching at WM...

EDIT: Never mind--different brands. But Defender's are probably just as good.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/19/2018 19:46:01

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2018 : 05:57:53

All across New Hampshire�s Lake Winnipesaukee, boaters there use Mooring Whips rather than plain docklines to keep their boats at the dock. There are some advantages including no need for fenders since the whips keep the boat away from the dock, easy pickup of the lines when you come back to the dock and have plenty of spring to take any kind of punishment from wind, waves and wakes you can throw at it. Here�s a sample from Overton�s catalog.

Mooring Whips

Might not suit if you�re looking to sleep on the boat in the slip but it�ll certainly protect your boat in all but the worst conditions like a hurricane...

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 06/23/2018 06:24:43

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/20/2018 : 07:38:21

On a calm day......

I lay a small loop over the boat cleats and run the lines into the dock cleat ( into the middle opening of the cleat ) and pull them all tight, but not cleated. Then I pull the boat forward to the port side till all the lines ( strbrd ) are pulled out a little. Then the other side and aft.

Then cleat the lines. The goal is to get all lines to pull evenly.

IE if I pull the boat bow strbrd the port bow line, and the aft strbrd spring line and the srtbrd aft lines should tighten evenly. ( Or port aft springline if you had one )

I end up with spring lines tighter than bow lines.

I use fenders cleated ( with smaller size lines ) to the boat cleats which secures the dock lines on the cleats ( although Ive never had the lines come of the boat cleats without the fender lines over them )

I added two extra cleats to each side of the boat midships forward and aft to hold fenders and spring lines.

Any one line too tight and it will damage the cleat. All lines too tight and it will damage all cleats.

Ive had two major "Wind Events" that have damaged other boats and the dock and my boat has been unharmed. Also lots of boat traffic and waves on my lake and OK so far. The only other advice I've heard is make sure the boat right next to you does not have a bigger mast, then you lose.

I hope this helps. Just my take on this boat.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/20/2018 : 07:49:47

I can't put all my dock lines under my cleats, my spring lines loop around the dock cleats. I use a bowline knot on the spring lines to adjust the length. This gives me more room on the cleat for the other lines.

Oh.. and I have one 1/2 aft line that crosses over the boat to the other side.. Helps with side to side rocking.

Lots of snubbers.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 06/20/2018 07:53:38

odonnellryanc
Navigator

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Response Posted - 06/20/2018 : 10:46:02

Loads on a slack line vs a tight line is an interesting question.

I would assume that a slack line actually adds more load to the line as the boat builds momentum and "snaps" tight against the lines.

Sort of like the wisdom that no, having your standing rigging loose does not reduce wear on your boat: it actually increases it!

However it might not always apply, since most of the time with slack lines and no current/wind, your boat would just be sitting there. If your lines are very taught your cleats will of course have tension and any tiny wake will put a GOOD amount of force on your cleats.

Probably would take some experimenting to find out what is the best...

I use the common white and gold dock lines for mine. 25', I think I use 5 lines. One aft, two mid ship cleats on port side, two on the bow.

I leave a bit of slack, but not much. Figure enough room for 6"-1' of wake.

Slept on the boat at dock like this about 2 weeks ago and we were extremely comfortable.

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/20/2018 : 14:48:41

Those dock line snubbers which Dave B pointed out are great! I find them the perfect answer to controlling dock line tension. Without snubbers, I've had 3/8" braided nylon dock lines on a Catalina 22 ruined within a few weeks from shock loading by wave action. With snubbers, no signs of wear in months. More to the point for this forum, I had similar results when I used them on my Catalina 25 (currently on its trailer). A set of dock lines lasted from 4 to 10 times longer when combines with snubbers. They also greatly reduce peak shock loads on cleats, etc.

-- Leon Sisson

� Leon Sisson

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/21/2018 : 08:25:40

<< I would assume that a slack line actually adds more load to the line as the boat builds momentum and "snaps" >>

I think that probably is the case. I've tired on my lines to have the spring lines absorb some of the boat movement and slow the boat before the aft or bow lines tighten fully.

I think thats the real advantage of the crossing spring lines.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2018 : 14:50:37

quote:
Originally posted by redeye

...I think thats the real advantage of the crossing spring lines.

Related subject: Crossing lines (spring lines and stern breast lines) is especially helpful in tidal water with fixed docks and/or lines tied to pilings. The longer the lines, the less the angle and thereby the effective length will change with the tide. I have one stern line tied to a piling--I run it across to the cleat on the opposite rail about 11' away.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

redeye
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Response Posted - 06/22/2018 : 11:31:23

Stinkpotter... I had three wraps on one of my snubbers and the snubber broke. I've gone with two wraps of line now. And a knot on the line on each end of the snubber.... If the line breaks you get to keep the snubber. Those things are expensive.

I know that's a lot to do but that's my deal now...

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2018 : 07:51:32

Done.

And you're always able to "tweak" whatever the Prompt mode gives you. I use that simply for convenience. [ /hijack ]

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/23/2018 07:54:46

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/23/2018 : 09:25:20

Does the dock float, or is it fixed? Ours float and we keep the boat snug up against the fenders against the dock.

Jerry

Voyager
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Response Posted - 06/24/2018 : 09:22:31

Am I doing my docklines wrong (whatever that means!!)? I have a bow dockline going to the dock cleat nearest it - maybe 8 ft. I have a stern line going to its dock counterpart. Then, from the center cleat, I have a 30 ft line tied in the middle. One half goes forward to the dock cleat where the bow line is fastened, the other half goes toward the aft dock cleat. The boat has three fenders between it and the dock.
I could do away with the mid cleat dockline and lead a second 30ft bow line all the way aft and lead a second stern line all the forward. That criss cross plus direct lines would definitely keep the boat firmly in place.
Luckily where I am we�re in a no wake zone at the end of a quiet harbor channel. The only wakes we get are when fire or police boats are on an emergency run.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2018 : 09:59:24

Bruce: Running "spring lines" to the opposite ends of the boat instead of to your midship cleat on the genoa track is most helpful if you have a fixed rather than floating dock or a line is tied to a fixed position on a piling in tidal water. Similarly the "breast lines", particularly aft where they otherwise would be shorter so angle changes will be greater, especially with your 5'+ tide range(?) I crossed an aft breast line from a piling on starboard to the port stern cleat on Passage--all other lines were from a floating dock so done as you describe. If everything is floating, then the only issue is allowing for wave action via a little slack, nylon lines, and/or snubbers.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

pastmember
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Response Posted - 06/24/2018 : 10:49:55

I have always tied up this way. The short bow lines are to prevent the bow wandering too far and hitting a dockbox. The spring lines are looped at the bow and tied off at the stern. That way I can tighten up from the cockpit. When setting up for dock side boarding loosening one line in the cockpit allows the boat to move to the dock naturally and then you can adjust the lines in the cockpit to hold the boat to the dock. When centered with the short safety lines at the bow I have NEVER taken damage at a dock and I have literally been through two tornados that went through the club and other serious wind too numerous to mention.

Frank Hopper

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2018 : 12:05:51

Frank is able to do without stern breast lines like he as at the bow because he has a dock cleat at about amidships, so one line can serve as both the aft breast and aft spring lines. If he had to run the aft spring all the way to the dock cleat where his bow lines are, it wouldn't effectively prevent the stern from pulling away from the dock. Midship cleats on the boat and/or the dock offer some options. I put Bruce's midship cleats on Passage, and have four cleats on each side on Sarge. The more the merrier!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

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