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 Window seals.
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Chichester
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/22/2018 :  13:36:18  Show Profile  Visit Chichester's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Are there any earlier posts on C25 windows. I'm re-fitting mine. I just watched the video by Paul Sanpaolo and noticed the corners of the glazing channel pucker. I was concerned about this when I dry-fitted one today.
Should I cut a notch the corner so it lays flat? It looks like it could get really messy.
Thanks y'all.
Chich.

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1466 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2018 :  14:37:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've done my windows twice...8 years apart. The corners do pucker, but that hasn't been the real issue. The key is to load the channel that the glass sits in and load the channel that the gasket sits in - and I mean REALLY LOAD IT - with sealant. The second time I did the windows, I must have cleared off and 'wasted' about 1/2 of the sealant as soo much was forced out when seating the glass into the gasket and the gasket into the frame.

I've found that the leaks redevelop between the aluminum frame and the fiberglass. I think it has to do with the fact that the cabin walls are so thin they flex when you walk on them. I think that is made worse (at least here in the NE) when walking around while on the hard and its cold. The seal between the frame and cabin breaks and then leaks the next season...

Jerry
Whisper
C-25, #1672,'80, SR/SK
S. Jamesport, NY
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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4094 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2018 :  17:22:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jerry, you mentioned the cabin walls or fiberglass skins on the inside and out.

Now, waaaaay back in the 80s when the cabin was first built, wouldnít there have been balsa or marine plywood core placed between the skins, or something for the skins to bond to while laying up the glass?

And over time, itís likely that this material rotted away or dried up or something?

Wouldnít it make sense to replace the rotted core with hard foam, new wood or thickened epoxy to regain the structural integrity of the cabin top?

I realize itís tough to fit chunks of material up inside between the skins over the top of the window openings, but thereís got to be some way to reinforce the area around the windows.

Has anybody else done this job and filled in the spaces with wood, styrofoam or some kind of thickened epoxy material?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain Stratford & Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 06/22/2018 17:25:55
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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1466 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2018 :  09:21:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bruce - Yes, we're a 1980 and there's a marine ply core...when I said flex, it's not noticeable and certainly not 'soft', but a bit of give is all that I can imagine is working to separate the window seals. I like the idea of hardening the core. I seem to vaguely recall some product that you can inject and it hardens to become rigid. That might do it, but it would need to be very thin to permeate through the core.

Jerry
Whisper
C-25, #1672,'80, SR/SK
S. Jamesport, NY
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
7943 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2018 :  15:48:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jerlim

...I seem to vaguely recall some product that you can inject and it hardens to become rigid...
Boatlife Git Rot penetrating epoxy might be what you're thinking of. It's intended to permeate wood that has rotted--not sure how well it would do on solid wood, but probably as well as just about anything.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4094 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2018 :  21:32:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And when you have the windows off, you should be able to scrape most of the rot out of the cavity with a long screwdriver or maybe even an oscillating tool. The inject the stuff all around up inside the opening. Should stiffen right up after it cures. Just be sure to maintain the correct uniform thickness between the two skins or the window might not fit back into the opening snugly.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain Stratford & Milford, CT
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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1466 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2018 :  06:01:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All good advice, thanks...in prior years we've done well w/ Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure...of course that only addresses the symptoms and not the ill... Hope folks are getting out this weekend in celebration of Summer Sailstice!

Jerry
Whisper
C-25, #1672,'80, SR/SK
S. Jamesport, NY
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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4094 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2018 :  07:03:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not to hijack but I saw quite a few Long Island Sound Sailstice trips on the official map.
I'll start another thread....

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain Stratford & Milford, CT
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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3739 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2018 :  17:11:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My seal kit from CD included 5200 instead of the recommended sealant. I bought a proper sealant and injected the 5200 between the inner and outer skins.


Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle
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Erik Cornelison
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2018 :  20:15:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What are the standard stock windows made of?

Has anyone ever thought of using a different window?

Erik Cornelison
6th Generation Professional Sailor, First Gen Submarine Sailor.
1986 Standard Rig SW. #5234
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Mark Maxwell
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2018 :  22:09:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Cornelison

What are the standard stock windows made of?

Has anyone ever thought of using a different window?




Cruising Concepts has a retrofit Lexan window. It is not cheap....but looks very nice
Herehttps://catalinaonly.com/retrofit-windows-for-aluminum-framed-boats/


Mark-
'Impulse'
1978 C25 #533 DINN/FIN ~_/)~
Bakersfield, CA.
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Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2018 :  01:05:03  Show Profile  Visit Lee Panza's Homepage  Reply with Quote
On my 1980 the space between the outer and inner shells of the cabin trunk assembly was only partially filled along the sides. There is plywood between the two shells across the cabin top, but not at the sides.

At the window cut-outs there is a layer of a light yellow resinous material adjacent to the thin outer shell, and it seems to be a relatively uniform thickness. I believe it was applied to the inside of this shell when the shell was fabricated. Then there is a layer of darker material between that and the inner shell. This darker material was apparently applied to the outer shell before the inner shell was lowered into it (with the units sitting upside down on the assembly bench), because it is continuously adhered to the yellow layer but there are gaps adjacent to the inner shell. In some places the gaps were so extensive that I could squeeze the two shells closer together with my fingers.

The two pictures below show the aft window on the port side just after the window unit was removed (the outer window frame with the glass in it is lying on the side deck; the inner window frame had been removed from inside the cabin). Note the sticky grey bedding material that had sealed the outer frame of the window to the outside of the cabin trunk assembly. Note also the inconsistent gap adjacent to the inner liner. The close-up shows this gap more clearly, but in the overall picture you can see how there is a more extensive gap near the top of the picture.








The thickness of the space between the two shells was not uniform, so in some areas the overall wall thickness is greater than in others. When the aluminum window frames were installed, the screws were able to draw the inner and outer frames tightly together where the space between the shells was nearly filled solid, but where the gap was more extensive (where I could squeeze the shells closer together with my fingers) the screws could not apply as much clamping pressure.

Before I reinstalled the windows I filled the gaps with 5200 and I adjusted the wall thickness to be more consistent. In some places I inserted small wooden wedges to spread the shells, and in other places I used small wooden clamps and C-clamps to draw the shells closer together. The 5200 filled the gaps completely. When the 5200 attained sufficient strength after about a week I removed the clamps, and I trimmed the excess 5200 and filled the places where the wedges had been. The pictures below shows this in progress.










As an aside, when I had earlier tried to remount some hardware on the cabin top, and I poured liquid epoxy into the old screw holes to fill them solid (with tape covering the holes at the interior surface), the epoxy kept draining away instead of filling the holes. I didn't understand what was happening until liquid epoxy began oozing out between the window frame and the cabin side below the holes I was trying to fill. There must be extensive gaps between the outer and inner shells of the cabin trunk, not just around the window cut-outs.

Another thing that the first picture shows is that the bedding is not a consistent thickness either. You can see the curvature of the cabin side. The window glass, however, was flat. When the windows were installed they had to bend the glass slightly. Also, the outer frame was pressed tightly against the cabin side toward the middle but it was not as tight toward the ends. The flexible bedding was squeezed down to a very thin layer for most of the length of the windows, but toward the ends it was thicker and did not even adhere well to the cabin side. It's no wonder these windows leaked as badly as they did.



The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)
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Mark Maxwell
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2018 :  13:17:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nice job Lee...Iím actually doing this project now. Most of my opening have even more damage than in your pics but the gap issue is the same. I am going to do a little different approach, instead of the 3m adhesive, I plan to use penetrating epoxy (I know this wonít fill it I just want to seal/repair some of the water pathways) followed by thickened epoxy to strengthen and set the gap to a consistent water tight seam.

More photos in the Projects Gallery section under 1978 C25 Portlight/Window Project
Trying to prevent and fix damage from leaking windows. I want to permanently seal the core around the portlight cut outs and set the glass with new seal kit from CD and use butyl tape to seal the frame to the boat.


Mark-
'Impulse'
1978 C25 #533 DINN/FIN ~_/)~
Bakersfield, CA.

Edited by - Mark Maxwell on 09/09/2018 13:49:25
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Mark Maxwell
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2018 :  16:41:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Cornelison

(snip)What are the standard stock windows made of?(snip)



Eric,
On my Ď78 C25 the portlights are Tempered Safety Glass



Mark-
'Impulse'
1978 C25 #533 DINN/FIN ~_/)~
Bakersfield, CA.

Edited by - Mark Maxwell on 09/09/2018 16:43:20
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