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 Transducer
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AlMo
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/23/2018 :  17:38:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All,
I am upgrading a waaay old GPSMap Garmin with a Garmin EchoMap cv54 featuring "CHIRP" which I understand to be a non-through-hull transducer to be mounted aft on the transom interior. I'm sure I'll get plenty of how-to help from the mounting instrux, but wonder if there are any gotchas to be aware of? Or if I can just hook into the extant GPSMap transducer? The wires going aft are 6-conductor, but I am not sure if it is a through-hull type or not. A water speed indicator would be nice, but couldn't find anything short of a 2-transducer Velocitech unit, and I am trying to avoid any new through-hulls on this 1978 senior citizen. Any hints or tips?

TIA,
Alex

1978 C25 "X Lives" #1035
SR/SK

AlMo
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2018 :  18:51:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am thinking of adding in a Velocitek SpeedPuck https://www.velocitek.com/products/speedpuck on the bulkhead (no new wiring), which will provide GPS heading and speed (with huge LCD display), and with the fish finder/plotter, should give me the "big 3" safety factors: look-ahead depth, speed and heading. Relative wind would be nice too I guess, but I believe there are a plethora of gizomology out there that plugs into the smartphone headphone jack, not sure about the battery drain they impose, however.

1978 C25 "X Lives" #1035
SR/SK
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HerdOfTurtles
1st Mate

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USA
46 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2018 :  13:53:00  Show Profile  Visit HerdOfTurtles's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Every single thing you have mentioned is, to me, a waste of time and money.

Chartplotter? Ipad in a waterproof case. Backup chartplotter? Your phone. No wires, no reliance on the house battery, takes up no space, cheap and easy to replace, and are multitaskers.

Depth finder? You say you want look-ahead depth.. are you sailing uncharted waters? Why do you think you need this? Unless you are sailing some strange waters where the depth changes drastically/unpredictably and isn't or can't be charted...get a basic bulkhead mounted depth finder for peanuts that has a transducer you can attach to the hull with life caulk. Cheap, easy, no holes.

Relative Wind Speed Meter? The most useful thing you can do with this IMO is determine the largest sail you can run, which you should be able to do by feel and by the weather forecast. There are cheap handhelds, dunno how accurate they are.

1978 Standard Rig
Fin Keel
L-Dinette
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AlMo
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2018 :  21:08:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for your POV, Herd. Transducer mounting is the major obstacle validating your "Waste of Time" observation. Either it gets in the way of rudder action, hardly a "safety feature", or it mounts far enough to starboard to be inaccurate when heeling. Garmin support site mentions a "Speed sensor" which is supposed to be mounted on the port side of the transom (where my 9.9 hp outboard is located), but doesn't seem to be in the box with all the other goodies. Also, doesn't seem to be a way around drilling a hole for the wiring cable in the transom, again I was misled by the salesperson, and will very likely be returning the item. Maybe 25' still doesn't rate a "big boat" chart plotter, so your points all taken, and thanks again!

1978 C25 "X Lives" #1035
SR/SK
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AlMo
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2018 :  21:34:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So this https://www.westmarine.com/buy/norcross-marine--d10d-hawkeye-digital-depth-sounder-transom-mount-in-hull-transducer--2568012?recordNum=2 must be what you meant by "Peanuts" ($100) and comes with an "in-hull" transducer, which satisfies the requirement to "drill no holes". And it is pretty light on battery use (20-40 mA, depending on whether you are using backlighting or not).

Anybody have advice on GPS software for tablets? I have Navionics "Boating HD" on my Android phone, which of course has GPS hardware. Do I need to get a tablet that has GPS built in?

1978 C25 "X Lives" #1035
SR/SK
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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4110 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2018 :  23:02:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alex, I have a Hawkeye depth meter on Amazon that I installed in my old depth gauge enclosure. I ran the cable down under the quarter berth panel and used a toilet bowl wax ring to mount it. It took a few tries to get the wax right, so if it doesnít work the first time, or the tenth time, try again.

I bought the Navionics Boating HD charts at $50 for my old WiFi/cellular iPad. Itís long since been taken off my wireless plan but the cellular chip still triangulates to the cell towers and the GPS is dead nutz accurate. Itís got a great pointer to tell you your true heading, so you know if youíre going to make it on this tack or the next one.

My WiFi-only device, on the other hand, is useless for navigation.
I also got the ďMarine USĒ navigation app from GeoGarage and itís good.

On my android phone I got something called Marine Ways, but it was free and it works as a backup but IMHO you get what you pay for...

I also downloaded the Navionics app to my android but didnít buy the charts (so the nagware never ends) but in a pinch itís fine especially if you still have paper charts (as I do).

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain Stratford & Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 07/27/2018 05:31:13
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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4110 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2018 :  23:59:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh, and for windspeed (curiosity mainly, since I can feel when itís too windy to go out), I use this fabulously cheap but pretty accurate handheld anemometer from LaCrosse.
https://www.lacrossetechnology.com/ea-3010u
Itís less expensive on most retail outlets

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain Stratford & Milford, CT
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dasreboot
Admiral

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744 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2018 :  06:06:00  Show Profile  Visit dasreboot's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I replaced the broken depth and speed instrument with a NASA marine dual unit. The paddle wheel fit where the original was. The depth transducer was simply epoxied to the hull, just forward of the keel. works fine that way . (that was the install they recommended) https://www.nasamarine.com/product/clipper-duet-system/

my only complaint is that speed has a high time delay while calculating the average.

btw chartplotter is an old toughbook running linux and opencpn

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5155 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2018 :  06:39:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Whether any given instrument is useful to you depends on how you intend to use the boat. An apparent wind indicator, for example, is almost indispensable for sailing at night, when you can't see the telltails and wind vane. A lighted AWI instrument enables you to steer the boat at any angle for which the sails are trimmed, maximizing your speed and pointing, and it enables you to follow variations in wind direction. In daylight, an AWI gives you an indicator of wind direction without having to repeatedly look to the masthead to see the wind vane, which can result in a sore neck after a long day of sailing. It can also help you stop your turn just shy of closehauled each time you tack. Most helmsmen steer well past closehauled, which results in a loss of ground to windward each time you tack, and makes your crew arm weary from having to use the winch handle to grind the heavily loaded jib up to closehauled after each tack. The AWI gives you a visual aid that tells you precisely when to stop the turn.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("FahrvergnŁgen")
Past Commodore
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Erik Cornelison
Navigator

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USA
122 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2018 :  07:33:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have the Signet SmartPac system with the SL250 display & 175 Sense basepack, I donít have the add on yet for wind. Gives me speeds, depth, water temp. The paddle wheel and transducer are mounted forward of the swing keel.
Works well.


http://www.signetmarine.com/




Erik Cornelison
6th Generation Professional Sailor, First Gen Submarine Sailor.
1986 Standard Rig SW. #5234

Edited by - Erik Cornelison on 07/27/2018 14:16:54
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HerdOfTurtles
1st Mate

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USA
46 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2018 :  12:08:50  Show Profile  Visit HerdOfTurtles's Homepage  Reply with Quote
@AIMo

That's the exact depth meter I have. I mounted the transducer on the hull under and just inboard of the sink. Open the cabinet under the sink, and I mounted it just to the left on the floor/hull. As to the accuracy when heeled... within about 2 ft is all I need. With 4ft draft, once I hit 8ft depth I start to head for deeper waters, when I hit 6ft I start to worry.

Water speed does seem nice, but I think the value for me is really just curiosity, and very occasional curiosity at that. Occasionally I will be passing through a canal with current and be curious how much it's helping or hurting me, and occasionally I could be trying out different sails/sail trims and want to see very accurate feedback to determine the optimal combo. I have a cheap knotstick for this purpose. For me, a paddlewheel instrument accuracy is always going to be suspect because of marine growth, unless I took it out and cleaned it that same day or very shortly thereafter. If your area doesn't grow slime/grass very fast and you plan on keeping it clean then MAYBE you could get your money and time's worth out of it.

1978 Standard Rig
Fin Keel
L-Dinette
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Erik Cornelison
Navigator

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USA
122 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2018 :  14:16:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My Signet SmartPac system does something new to me, while sailing along at 3-4 knots, it gives me on the speed indicator a + or - sign that lets me know instantly the speed increase/decrease, before I see anything on the speed/numbers. This lets me trim the sails much better than my awesome Hummingbird transducer. I get instant real time for very minor speed increases that a power boater wouldn't care about.

Erik Cornelison
6th Generation Professional Sailor, First Gen Submarine Sailor.
1986 Standard Rig SW. #5234

Edited by - Erik Cornelison on 07/27/2018 14:18:06
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Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2018 :  20:10:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I dont know if you considered this but I used the toilet ring wax method.

Simply buy two toilet bowl wax rings. take wax off mold it. Clean fiber glass under stairs on bottom of boat, Put down the was mold it to support the transducer. Plunge the transducer in the wax. run the wires up to where the gauges are in cock pit. Super easy. Work great and I like it better than the Ipad phone approach. Theres no switching functions it also has nice depth alarm and other sailing softward features. I bought the garmin GPSMAP 741xs. Love it. Works great thru hull. used a P-66 transom mount sensor

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John




Photo Album
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AlMo
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2018 :  11:31:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you John very good information

1978 C25 "X Lives" #1035
SR/SK
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
7977 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2018 :  13:46:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can't imagine a transom-mounted transducer being of any use on a C-25. Most of the transom is above the surface most of the time, except for the skeg in front of the rudder. I have a transom-mount on my $+!nkp*+, and it is supposed to be mounted so it'e dead-even with the bottom of the transom so it won't catch something sliding under the hull. An in-hull transducer set in wax is a better solution in a sailboat--no new hole, and it can be placed further forward--not that it will keep you from hitting something... (It might give you a second to brace yourself.) Garmin has an in-hull CHIRP transducer. Or you could ask them about interfacing your old transducer to their newer displays, at least to get a number. (I have my doubts.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-OUPV
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/29/2018 09:36:52
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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1333 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2018 :  17:53:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A few years ago I removed all my thru-hull transducers and had the openings in the hull professionally filled/glassed over. Now my transducer is siliconed inside the hull and works fine. If I had a more sophisticated chart plotter I would still have the transducer inside but would set it in more stable media, such as plumbers wax. However the important thing is inside works fine and is much less hastle!

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
7977 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2018 :  09:41:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From all I've heard, there's nothing wrong with silicone in place of wax--the key is eliminating air bubbles between the transducer and the hull. Silicone might be more stable long-term, while wax might have a slight tendency to flow.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-OUPV
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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