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 Multiple Reef points in Main
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AlMo
1st Mate

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USA
31 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/18/2018 :  13:28:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Mainsail on my c25 seems to have only one Reef Point a set of 3 buntlines about 4 feet up the Mainsail from the Boom, to cringles at about the same elevation or height, so can I assume this sale on serial number 1035 has only one Reef Point? If so, is it possible to add more? This sail is the original age of the boat 1978 but in good shape so I would not be looking at making a brand new Mainsail if that's the only way to get multiple Reef points. I have seen recommendations saying that that is the right way to go however.

1978 C25 "X Lives" #1035
SR/SK

Peregrine
Admiral

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724 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2018 :  15:43:25  Show Profile  Visit Peregrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You or a sail loft could but most of us live with the one reef point.
Reefed and the headsail furled to 110% I'm pretty good to go in most conditions.


John Gisondi
Peregrine
#4762


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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3303 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2018 :  16:10:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with John. I have one reef point and I am fine with it. If the wind gets to the point that a second reef is needed then I would just drop the main and work the headsail or call it a day before I'm in over my head.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3739 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2018 :  19:12:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have lived with with one reef point but really think I'll add a second one since one just reduces a tall rig to roughly a standard rig.


Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Edited by - Dave5041 on 08/18/2018 19:13:03
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AlMo
1st Mate

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USA
31 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2018 :  20:04:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dave, are you planning to do it yourself or plan to use a local sailmaker?

1978 C25 "X Lives" #1035
SR/SK

Edited by - AlMo on 08/18/2018 20:05:57
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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1330 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2018 :  05:51:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
FWIW -- I have two reef points but have never used the second. However I sail on Western Long Island Sound, which typically has too little vs too much wind. If you sail where it frequently pipes up you may find a second reef point useful. I would only have a sail maker do the work as if done incorrectly, the sail, especially an older one, could be compromised.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct

Edited by - bigelowp on 08/19/2018 05:52:20
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Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2018 :  07:45:42  Show Profile  Visit Lee Panza's Homepage  Reply with Quote
As has been pointed out, the desirability of a second reef in the mainsail is largely a matter of personal preference. It can also matter where you sail: the ferocity of winds in some locations can be good reason for wanting a second reef. Summer afternoons on San Francisco Bay or the Columbia River come to mind.

I had my main built with two reef points for this very reason. The first reef I call my "summertime" reef, as it sees a lot of use during much of the year. Summer days in San Francisco typically start off gently, and I might want all the power I can muster, but the wind builds rapidly in the early afternoon. Even then, in the shadow of the City front or Angel Island, it can be impossible to make progress against an unfavorable current without putting up everything I've got, while it can be blowing like stink between those shadows.

My second reef I refer to as my "Oh, s***" reef, and there are times when that expression certainly applies. I might also call it the "Admiral's reef" because when my girlfriend is with me I sometimes find it prudent to take it even if I wouldn't on my own.

My first reef point is set up to require going to the mast to secure the tack, and it also requires bringing the boom in to re-secure the clew. The second reef, for when conditions are already pushing the limits of the first one, is set up for single-line reefing from the safety of the cockpit. This, unfortunately, requires the excess reefing line to be tucked-in under the sail ties when when flaking the sail after a day of light breeze (to avoid the complication of easing it out when I go to raise the sail to full hoist next time out).

The other factor to consider, also a matter of where you sail, is whether you might frequently expect to want that second reef to get you home. I typically have a long (two to three hours) reach to return to my home marina after a day up in the central SF Bay, and that second reef - with a deeply-furled jib - is more efficient than sailing under the headsail alone. A long upwind leg might allow the option of just easing the main instead of reefing it.

Alex, in your Original Post, you didn't mention whether you have a boom topping lift. While there have been may discussions here about the desirability of a topping lift, you might find it pretty much essential if you need to go from the first reef to the second under a building breeze. I would NOT want to attach the boom to the backstay when conditions require shortening sail from that first reef point. Lazy jacks are another valuable improvement in that situation.

These are just thoughts to consider. For many of us a second reef point in the mainsail is really not necessary. Some might consider it advisable as a measure of "insurance" in case it's ever needed, but I would point out that taking a second reef when you need it is something that should be practiced when you don't. If you cannot tuck that second reef proficiently "in anger" you might be better off just dropping the main entirely. Sometimes having an option available can get us into more trouble than if it's not.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
7943 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2018 :  20:19:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is yours a tall or standard rig? What waters and conditions are you dealing with? Have you felt the need for a deeper reef, or have concerns over safety in your travels?

As mentioned above, the first reef on a tall rig is generally about equivalent to a standard rig. The first reef on a SR would be similar to a second reef on a TR. If I had a TR, I might want both. A sailmaker can add one for you--it involves reinforcing particularly at the reef tack and clew. With a 1978 sail, your money might be better spent on a new one made with two reefs. A 40 year-old sail is likely to be stretched out, even if the cloth "looks" good. I'd wager a new one would substantially improve your pointing and reduce heeling. I probably wouldn't put the money into that old sail.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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AlMo
1st Mate

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USA
31 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2018 :  20:44:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sure looks to me like good advice Dave. I am on a lake that drains in about 2 months so kind of thinking ahead past the winter. I hear you loud and clear the old sail and money better spent, this is hopefully what I'm doing buying the CD4 roller Furler and a new head Sail. I feel like the conditions on Fern Ridge Lake would be satisfied with Reef Point 0 and furling the head sail partially. Reef Point one is main fully down and a reef headsail that should take care of all the scenarios that I might very likely as a learning sailor be encountering. Thanks again for the great advice.

1978 C25 "X Lives" #1035
SR/SK
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dasreboot
Admiral

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731 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2018 :  05:18:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
have 2 reefs on a tall rig, and consider it necessary. Ive used reef 2 a handful of times, including a time when we put in 2 reefs and had the headsail rolled up to about 50%. The rail was still in the water, exciting! This particular sail came from ebay, and had only one reef. I had uhlman annapolis put in another reef. cost about $120. I just ordered a sail for another boat, and asked that the second reef be about 20% deeper than normal.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
7943 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2018 :  07:38:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AlMo

...Reef Point one is main fully down and a reef headsail that should take care of all the scenarios that I might very likely as a learning sailor be encountering. Thanks again for the great advice.

Perhaps you've already tried it, but we found that sailing on our 130% furling genny was very pleasant on a blustery day or evening on Long Island Sound. The low center of effort of a genny greatly reduces heeling, and the larger the headsail, the more balanced it is alone (CE further aft). Another of my "old" sayings: "Pull one string and you're sailing; pull another string and you're not!" Perfect for an evening sail to nowhere!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3166 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2018 :  03:16:18  Show Profile  Visit OLarryR's Homepage  Reply with Quote
My original (tall rig) main sail had two reef points, however, my experience was that I very rarely used the reefing and when I did , it was never using the top reefing holes. When I replaced my original sails, I had Quantum design the main with one set of reef holes about equidistance between the two sets of holes that were on the original main sail. In this way, if I did resort to reefing, it had a bit more impact than using the lower holes on my original main and I found that ideal with no real reason to ever desire an addl set of reefing holes.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Wash DC http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
7943 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2018 :  05:51:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This discussion is a classic case of the value of showing the rig and keel (TR/FK, SR/SK, etc.) as well as the year in the Profile Signature. Two reefs or a deeper single reef has a different meaning on a tall vs. a standard rig. If someone inadvertently omits that perspective in their comments, it's still there.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5145 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2018 :  09:41:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The way that you rig the boat will always depend largely on how you plan to use the boat. If you intend to sail it for some distances in exposed waters, then you should rig it for the likelihood that, at some time, you'll be caught in severe conditions. If you intend to sail it in a bay or lake where you can find shelter quickly, then a single reef will be sufficient, because you'll probably drop the sails and motor to shelter if it gets too rough.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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