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Catalina 27 ~ 25 compare

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JanS48
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Initially Posted - 04/15/2019 : 21:13:44

Greetings everyone I need to re-visit this topic with a couple of specific questions.

Regarding length does anyone know how much longer a C27 (early 80's) is compared to an 82 C25? I know the obvious is 2 ft. but is that accurate?

Sailing / handling - does a C27 handle as good as a C25? I'm very pleased with the way my 82 C25 sails.

Keel bolts - does the C27 have the same keel bolt concern as the C25? Anyone ever here of a C27 keel coming un-glued?

Any other pluses or minuses regarding the C27?

Mainly I'm interested in getting something with an inboard.
I've was in a few situations last season where I was under sail with the motor down and a sudden gust nearly put the motor underwater for a moment. I'd very much like not to have to worry about that.

Thanks in advance.
Jan

82 C25 SR FK
Sailing out of Newport Harbor.

Voyager
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Response Posted - 04/15/2019 : 21:51:19

Hi JanS,
You can get all the specifics on sailboatdata. Catalina Yachts
Regarding keel bolts, I think that�s a funny question frankly. Have you ever experienced keel bolt failures or known anybody who�s had a failure? Anything is possible I reckon...
There�s a 27 in my harbor that is a mid-80s vintage. I�ve spoken with the owner a few times to compare notes and he and his partner are very happy with it.
I�m very happy with an outboard engine because I cannot tolerate the smell or soot of diesels. I�ve only had a problem once with the outboard coming out of the water when I was combatting 40 mph gusts on the beam.
Each to his or her own I guess.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 04/15/2019 21:52:55

keats
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Response Posted - 04/16/2019 : 04:23:54

According to sailboatdata.com, which isn't always accurate, the 27 is not quite 2' longer and has actually slightly less waterline length than the 25.

The 27 adds a bit less than a foot in beam, weighs about 50% more and draws about the same.

There are a couple of different cabin layouts and a tall rig version.

I believe gas and diesel inboards were used at times on the 27. Did you know there is an inboard version of the 25?

To me, the 27 seems like a beefier 25 with a more roomy cabin and an enclosed head. I don't think it adds much in the cockpit.

I have not heard of either boat suffering from chronic keel bolt issues. Maybe you mean slight keel separation from the hull? I have heard of what they call the "Catalina Smile".

Tim Keating
1985 C-25 TR/FK #4940
Midsummer
Lake Don Pedro, CA

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/16/2019 : 05:35:10

The 27 is an older design than the 25, and I have always thought the people at Catalina asked themselves how they could improve it. They increased the C25's waterline length by a couple inches over the C27 and decreased it's displacement by about 2300 lbs. Consequently, the C25 has a slightly higher hull speed and it can accelerate quicker than the C27. The extra weight is a detriment in the smooth waters of a small inland lake, but it's an advantage in bigger waters, such as a big lake or bay. When a sailboat is beating to windward against a heavy chop, each wave that slaps it's bow knocks off some speed. A heavier C27 punches through that chop and is less affected by it than the much lighter C25. I have heard that the C25's V berth is slightly roomier than the C27's.

When I sailed on a small inland lake, I never had a C27 beat my C25, but the C27's on the Chesapeake Bay are astonishingly fast, and I suspect they are being stripped of excess weight. Also, the Chesapeake Bay C27 racers are very skilled sailors. I haven't seen anyone race a C25 seriously on the Bay, but I think a C25 would be competitive in shorter, around-the-buoy races, but not in long, down-the-Bay races. Big boats, with their long waterlines and high hull speeds, have a distinct advantage over small boats, and leave them behind quickly.

I would choose a C25 for a small inland lake and a C27 for a bigger body of water, but if you're not into distance racing, a C25 would serve well too.

With regard to the choice between inboard and outboard power, the outboard works as well downwind as an inboard. I motored downwind on a friend's inboard boat in a 55kt survival storm on the Bay, and we were running parallel to a Cal 25 with outboard power. It was touch and go for both of us, but we both made it. The big difference is when motoring to windward in a heavy chop. An inboard prop stays in the water better than an outboard prop, and handles it better, but both types have their limitations. Several years ago our inboard powered boat made such slow progress motorsailing to windward against heavy chop that we decided we would run out of fuel before we would make our destination, so we returned to our starting point and waited a day for more favorable conditions. Seamanship is about making good choices. An inboard engine doesn't guarantee that you won't have to make hard choices.

The fixed keels on both boats are generally designed and attached in the same way. They're no more or less susceptible to problems than most other boats. The "Catalina smile" isn't unique to Catalinas. On a C&C, it's called a "C&C smile." It can happen to any keel boat that makes a hard grounding.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/16/2019 06:31:48

JanS48
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Response Posted - 04/16/2019 : 09:07:15

Thanks so much for the input.
I'm sailing out of Newport Harbor (RI) - I often head out into the ocean. On a few occasions last season I was sailing to windward with the motor down in light air when out of the blue a strong gust thru the boat over, unfortunately I was on a starboard tack and the motor nearly went under for a moment. I've often thought that a slightly heavier (bigger) boat with an inboard would be better suited to sails from Newport to Block Island. In the C25 that's gotten a little 'hairy' a few times.

I actually like the idea of an outboard with easy accessibility to everything but from what I see the inboard has it's merits as well.

Regarding diesel inboards is 350 hrs a lot? It doesn't sound like a lot to me. Also are they a lot noisier than an outboard? My current 15 HP Mercury 4 stroke is very quiet.

I see a number of C27's with diesel inboards in my area for very reasonable prices.

Thanks
Jan

82 C25 SR FK
Sailing out of Newport Harbor.

JohnP
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Response Posted - 04/16/2019 : 10:17:34

I've sailed to Block on my friend's 1982 C25 SR/SK a dozen times or more from East Greenwich, and in the marina in New Harbor, there have never been any other 25' sailboats.

I think that for your sailing venue a 30' or 35' sailboat would be safer. Of course, that's easy to say, but hard to pay for!

A few trips to Block on the C25 were a little scary, like motoring across Block Island Sound from Newport a day after a hurricane passed. The evening before I called the Point Judith Coast Guard station and we followed their advice, leaving at 5am before the waves grew to dangerous sizes. That turned out fine, and we had a great time!

The C25 can easily handle 10-12' swells but is not really safe with wind waves on top of that. So choosing a good day and time to head out to the ocean is required.

When my friend visits me, we sail in my C25 on the Chesapeake Bay which is like an inland sea with mostly shallow water but also variable wind and waves. The bay has lots of "hurricane holes" to run for when thunderstorms pop up. Not so on Block Island Sound. The C25 is a nice little boat for the Chesapeake Bay and for the Narragansett Bay, too, but it can test your seamanship and navigation skills sailing/motoring to Block Island. Handling would be pretty much the same with a C27, except for motoring in heavy chop.

Happy sailing!

JohnP
1978 C25 SR/FK "Gypsy"
Mill Creek off the Magothy River, Chesapeake Bay
Port Captain, northern Chesapeake Bay

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/16/2019 : 10:25:06

350 hours for a diesel engine is very low hours.

Modern outboards are becoming very quiet. I wouldn't say diesels are loud, but one might be louder than a quiet modern outboard.

Even with modern aids you can still be surprised by severe weather. In addition to watching for signs of weather, monitor channel 16 and the vhf weather channels for broadcast warnings, and take action to rig the boat for it before it strikes, especially if you're shorthanded. If you can't get back to your destination, give up trying and go any direction that is safe. The worst part of most summer storms passes over in an hour, and will allow you return to your desired heading after that. Any time you can get into the lee of land, things will calm significantly.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 04/16/2019 : 10:47:41

I had the O/B completely immersed one time on Lake Cheney. It had no cowling (lost it on the Oklahoma washboard highways) and when it surfaced it was still running and I never had a problem after that either.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 04/16/2019 : 11:38:24

The only thing I'd like to suggest, beyond the excellent and authoritative info presented above (Derek, I found your experience RE immersion to be very reassuring - thanks!), is that an inboard motor would probably be noisier in the cabin than an outboard, a consideration for a guest or crew that might need to get out of the weather.

My own experience on SF Bay, which develops a significant short, squarish chop every summer afternoon, is that the 27s that I've sailed near do seem to make better progress against that chop. I can't say that for certain, never having raced formally against one, but you know what they say about anytime two boats are sailing near each other on the same tack...

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

Leon Sisson
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Response Posted - 04/16/2019 : 17:26:42

In my mind, the most significant difference between the Catalina 25 and 27 is the 25s are (sorta) trailerable vs. a bit more head room in the 27.

There were a few Catalina 25s built with inboard engines, both gasoline and diesel. Which means, not only is it possible to retrofit an inboard, the plans for doing so are probably collecting dust at the Catalina factory.

As an aside, some lunatic sailed a Catalina 27 around the world and lived to tell of it. So far, I don't know if anyone attempting that with a Catalina 25.

� Leon Sisson

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2019 : 19:32:56

My experience on both suggests the C-27 has more headroom, a rommier main salon, a shorter v-berth, and feels considerably heavier under way. A diesel inboad is definitely noisier than a 4-stroke outboard (and somewhat noisier than the Atomic 4 gas inboard in many C-27s.) Given the hours you mentioned, and depending on the boat�s vintage, that diesel may be a re-power from an Atomic 4. Diesel fuel can cause clogging due to moss that can grow in the tank and then turn to sludge that gets stirred up in big chop and fill the filter. There are additives to help prevent the growth. But it�s wise to carry spare filters and know how to bleed the system after you change them.

In about 1983-84, the C-25 fin changed from cast iron with mild steel bolts and nuts to glass-encapsulated lead with stainless steel bolts (which my �85 had). I would suspect a similar change on the C-27, but don�t know. But I haven�t heard of a single keel coming off any vintage of either model

I chose a C-25 mostly due to size constraints of a club where we wanted to keep her. Friends who did more cruising to places like Block and the Vinyard chose a C-27. I may have done the same in their shoes. As Leon mentioned, the C-25 was about the largest �easily transportable� sailboat you could get, although I�ve oftened cautioned against buying it as a �trailer sailer��the set-up and take-down are jobs that make day-sailing off a trailer pretty impracticle in my view.

I�ll take this opportunity to recommend a professional survey of either model as a contingency on the offer, but especially an inboard C-27. It can be the best ~$400 you spend, even (or especially) if it causes you to walk away.

Enjoy the hunt, and keep us informed!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/16/2019 19:53:52

SKS
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Response Posted - 04/17/2019 : 02:07:57

I'd definitely go for a C27 over the C25. When I upgraded from my C22, I had a choice between a C27 and a C25.
The C27 is a little more roomier, but the big advantage is that it has an enclosed head. The one I looked at also had pressurized hot and cold water. I regret not having purchased the C27.
I was a little fearful of handling the C27 all by myself in and out of the dock, so I went with the smaller 25 foot. I have the diesel inboard, which I love. Be aware, there's a big difference in boat handling between a steerable outboard and a fixed single screw. I had the old Morris two handle engine controls replaced with a single handle style which makes it much easier to control the engine.
So, now I'm looking at upgrading again, this time to a S2 9.2CC to get even more room inside and a private cabin.
As always, my free advice comes with a double your money back guarantee.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 04/17/2019 : 09:17:25

I too have been going through the same research. Overall my observation is that the keel bolts and basic construction are similar enough to be of the same "concern" -- which means how the boat has been maintained is important. The newer variants (after @1984) have a revised deck configuration more like the C-25 and which I at least prefer. Engines vary from OB to Atomic-4 to Universal 11 or 14 HP diesel (diesel preferred). The 27 is slightly larger but not all that much, has slightly more head room, but not all that much, if with a diesel will motor much better in a chop/swell. I think that most would jump from a C-25 to a C-30 for more room and "big boat" feel rather than a C-27. However I have been looking at the C-27 as it would be easier for me to single hand, has a diesel inboard, and is under 30 ft. (cost per foot increases in my area for storage, service, etc.) In the current market I have seen some excellent values albeit the devil is in the details and how well the boat has been maintained is all important.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

islander
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Response Posted - 04/17/2019 : 12:32:23

Peter, Have you considered the O'Day 28? It's 10'3" beam results in a big cabin with stand up headroom equal to most 30'+ boats along with wide side decks. Inboard diesel (universal) all in a 28' package. From what I've read it was one of the best boats they made. I too pay by the foot so that cost is a consideration in moving up. The Cat 27 to me just isn't much of an improvement.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 04/17/2019 12:33:21

Davy J
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Response Posted - 04/18/2019 : 10:10:58

quote:
Any other pluses or minuses regarding the C27?

Depending on the year, one huge plus to me, on some C27's, is mid-boom sheeting. Allows for proper bimini/dodger combinations. Also, if price isn't exactly the driving force, a C270 with walk-thru transom has many "new boat" features.

But really, if slip constraints and trailering are not a concern, something 30' or larger would be a real change.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 04/18/2019 : 10:51:21

Jan: I think we may be looking at the same boat.

Scott: Yes I have that is on the list. I just missed out on one last fall. Also have looked at the Sabre. Both the O'Day and Sabre are predominately with wheel helms and I would prefer tiller. The S2 8.7 is another and they appear to be 50/50 tiller/wheel.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2019 : 16:18:47

quote:
Originally posted by bigelowp

...and I would prefer tiller.

Ya, wheels are for $+!nkp*++er$.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/18/2019 : 18:04:33

You'd think it would be easy to steer with a wheel, because it's so similar to driving a car, but it takes awhile to develop a feel for it. At first you feel none of that feedback that you have with a tiller, but you can develop that in time. With a tiller, it's hard to be comfortable on a long passage, but with a wheel, you can sit behind it, stand behind it, sit to either side of it, and you can lock it easily with a wheel brake. It took me about two years to begin to feel competent with a wheel, but now, fifteen years later, I enjoy it as much as a tiller, so my advice is don't shun a nice boat because it has a wheel. Developing new and different skills is a good thing.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

JanS48
Navigator

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Response Posted - 04/18/2019 : 23:43:18

Again, thanks to all for the great info.

My boat is moored in Brenton's cove off of Fort Adams St. park in Newport Harbor. I'm on a mooring that's been in the family for 70+ years. Unfortunately I'm limited to an approximate 25 ft. boat. I may be able to argue the point that a C27 may only be a few inches longer than my C25 with the rudder and motor off the back. The boat yard where I store it for the winter has it listed with an LOA of 28.3 (their measurements). Hence the interest in the C27.
There seems to be a few C27's around at great prices. I'm not certain it will happen this year but if I can get the harbor master to go for a C27, I'm leaning in that direction. Budget wise I could go to 12k for the right boat. I'd love to have a 270 with the rear lower deck but the prices for those go up sharply.

I need to find a C27 skipper in Newport harbor and tag along for a sail.

Thanks again for all the input.

Jan

82 C25 SR FK
Sailing out of Newport Harbor.

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 04/19/2019 : 04:59:25

Great responses !

But this question regarding a C-27 vs a C-25, I have a sort of different perspective. Having owned a C-25 or for that matter having owned sailboat(s), the question that I mull over sometimes is "Do I want a larger boat?" Okay, in general, given the waters that are most convenient for me to sail, the C-25 fits my purposes. Perhaps, if I did more overnighters or desired longer sailing outings, then I would see the benefit of purchasing a larger boat. As it is, I am actually going the other way with building a 15' sailboat at Chesapeake Light Craft this September and I am assembling the trailer right now. There are various reasons why I want to do this (hobby, trailer/sail in different areas, etc) but I am still keeping and sailing my C-25 !

Getting back to my considerations if I were to get a larger boat and given that I already have and enjoy my C-25, I would want a larger boat that would make a substantial difference probably both in sailing and creature comforts including accommodations. As one starts out with generally a smaller sailboat, perhaps a 13' sailboat and works his/her way up from there, one looks at the addl features and advantages of moving up in boat size. In my case, moving from a 13' to a 16' meant that I mainly would have a more stable boat and could accommodate guests and guests that did not have to be constantly concerned with leaning outward out of the boat to maintain speed and stability. I would be able to utilize a small outboard and not have to rely on a paddle, etc, etc. Then going from a 16' to a 23' and then to a 25' had addl advantages for those decisions - Able to sleep and potentially cook onboard, not constantly sprayed every time I hit a wavelet since the freeboard was significantly higher on a 25' verses the 16'. But what I have found as I went from a 23' to a 25' and then consider a larger sailboat is that for general day sailing, they all have similar features. Okay, the creature comforts change a bit but this is of most importance only based on how the individual will be using the sailboat. if mostly day sailing, there is not going to be a world of difference and there are also compromises that are made. For example, a C-25 most commonly comes with an outboard and a tiller whereas a C-27 most commonly comes with an inboard and wheel steering. The compromises are that an inboard takes away some inboard space and a C-27 is perhaps not quite large enough to include significant changes in the head area which if I were going for a larger boat, I would want not a smaller VBerth area but a larger VBerth area and I would want the head area with a shower. If I Had wheel steering, I would want addl cockpit room to better accommodate wheel steering and guests. So, for me, a present C-25 owner. It is not a question of a C-27 vs a C-25 because I do not see, at least for me, enough benefits outweighing still some compromises to switch to a C-27. For me to consider a larger boat, it would have to be more significant benefits that would be to consider a C-30 or a C-32....if I were to move to a larger sailboat....but then have to weigh the addl draft and potentially more difficult to handle single handedly versus staying with my C-25.

So, a C-25 vs a C-27, perhaps go with the C-27 if you appreciate it's benefits and do not already own a C-25. But if you already own a C-25, for me, I would stay with the C-25 or else go with a C-30 or a C-32 which better accommodates wheel steering, a head/shower and possibly a chart table and has real increased accommodations including a larger VBerth area.....if draft, single handed sailing and cost pose no significant impacts.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 04/19/2019 : 18:46:17

Larry: Well stated, good points!

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

glivs
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Response Posted - 04/19/2019 : 20:01:44

Steve (Milby)...Your past posts on sail shape and your notes above on mass/momentum for powering through chop are real eye openers for me. Thank you. Much of our day sailing is in a protected bay that see's white caps but has a limited fetch so wave height is limited and we can sail in a wide range of wind speeds. In the open lake, however, there are times when I can barely make 1kn because of the chop.

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/19/2019 : 20:36:44

You're welcome Gerry. I'm glad if it helps.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

blanik
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Response Posted - 05/07/2019 : 16:53:04

quote:
Originally posted by WK 727

Very interesting topic. On bluewaterboats.org are about 100 boats that they believe are capable for bluewater. The C27 is the only Catalina on the list. Just something to consider.

The only reason a C27 is on this list is because of it's availability and the fact a couple of C27s have made circumnavigations but it doesn't make them anything close to a blue water sailboat, much has been written about Patrick Chldress who sailed around the world in a C27, the boat was beefed up with about 40 modifications including oversised rigging, hull chainplates for aft lower shrouds instead of the deck mounted chainplates and the list goes on

1984 C25 FK/SR #4593
Lake Champlain

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2019 : 06:37:55

quote:
Originally posted by JanS48

...Unfortunately I'm limited to an approximate 25 ft. boat. I may be able to argue the point that a C27 may only be a few inches longer than my C25 with the rudder and motor off the back.

...especially when you're outboard is tipped up out of the water, forming a dagger...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/12/2019 : 17:33:08

Ran into a local (CT) C-27 that, for some reason, had a modified keel and rudder. Owner claims it sails better, but I question why anyone would spend money to modify such a production boat that has universal reviews for being a "good sailing boat". This family (three generations) have only sailed on Long Island Sound! Keel appears to be a foot +/- deeper and with a Much larger rudder. Interesting, but still wonder -- why!?

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - bigelowp on 05/12/2019 18:11:17

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.