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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Rebedding / Adding New Deck Hardware

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Gunner
Deckhand

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Canada
12 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/09/2019 : 08:55:02

Hi guys, me again.

The boat I purchased last summer has a bunch of deck hardware that is bedded in a gob of silicone. I am well-aware that this is the incorrect way to bed hardware (and it looks messy) and it's on my priority list to re-do the job. Nothing has started leaking yet, but prevention is better than repairing, right?

I'm familiar with the process of over-drilling holes, adding epoxy, and bedding deck hardware in butyl tape. That is how I plan on doing the obvious things such as the stanchions and winches. however I also understand that these Catalina 25's are made with a hull/deck liner. It's this "liner" that I know nothing about.

Is this going to complicate my process when I go to add new small deck hardware, such as fairleads up to the bow for the spinnaker lines, or maybe a small Railblaza attachment point on the stern?

Is there just an empty void in there, or is there a wood core? Or what am I dealing with? What's the best practice for installing these new smaller items that don't take a large load?

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2019 : 10:40:13

This is a part of the deck I removed to add a vent to the forward port side of the mast. There is a liner in that area and part of it meets top to bottom with resin filling in between. One side has a bit of a gap.
Both sides of the same disc.

So I expect some areas have gaps between the liner and the deck.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 05/09/2019 10:41:43

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2019 : 12:16:46

Besides "over drilling" the holes, filling with epoxy and re-drilling. I took a bent finishing nail, put it in my drill and reamed out the space between the liner and the deck. That area, as shown above, has a wood filler and it may be water damaged. By reaming it out the epoxy will fill in and restore the structure so no more water can get in there.

John Gisondi
Peregrine #4762

*

Gunner
Deckhand

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Canada
12 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2019 : 17:27:36

Thanks guys! And Redeye, those photos are fantastic- thank you!
Do you happen to know if there will be the same makeup near the stern of the boat, say.. near the aft quarter cleats?

For some reason I figured "liner" meant two fiberglass bodies with a simple void in between.

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2019 : 18:20:21

Oh there's voids especially around the windows. I think the cabin top and side decks including the cleat areas are solid.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2019 : 20:53:49

From my limited explorations, the deck and cabin-top seemed tight to the plywood core under them, but the interior liner was not, as Redeye's photos suggest. That seems to make sense when you think about how the boat is put together, and that the purpose of the core is to stiffen the fiberglass above it--not necessarily below.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2019 : 05:24:29

While you may find that the interface between the fiberglass and wooden core may not be solid in all parts of the boat, if you�re installing a deck fitting or a bracket onto the outer fiberglass, and also installing a backing plate behind (inside the boa)t with a complete bolt-pattern, then you�re essentially squeezing the inner skin to that core. Some folks would prefer there to be a solid bond there, so you can add epoxy, then tighten the bolts. If the core is rotten, you�ll see it on the drill bit and you�ll know that you�ve got to fill the area with penetrating epoxy first before you install the parts.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2019 : 06:33:44

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

...If the core is rotten, you�ll see it on the drill bit and you�ll know that you�ve got to fill the area with penetrating epoxy first before you install the parts.

...or another variation first described here by Leon Sisson, I think: overdrill, fill with thickened epoxy (or Marine Tex), and re-drill to the bolt size. That creates a solid "compression sleeve" to protect the liner as well as the core. If rot is there, the bent nail technique can remove some of it, and penetrating epoxy can precede the thickened stuff to harden up some of the remaining core. All of this replicates what higher-end builders generally do today--make the areas in a cored deck solid where hardware will be mounted.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2019 : 08:03:00

I've drilled into the aft rail area and found it to be pretty much all resin and fiberglass mat.

I've drilled into the area next to the winch and it was core without the liner. like the top layer in the picture.

They lay a liner inside the deck and I'm not sure how far the liner goes out into different areas.

That might be an interesting utube search for sailboat construction, watching them lay a liner into the deck.

you tube "how Cataline Yachts are made" and you can see the liner and deck.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 05/10/2019 09:02:31

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1889 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2019 : 12:01:43

Regarding reinforcing the attachment of deck hardware.

I don't take credit for the "drill 2x, epoxy fill, redrill" technique, but I sure do use and recommend it. Sealed core, compression sleeve, reinforced bolt hole, it's worth the effort. On my boats, I've generally done all the deck fittings at once, which is much faster and more efficient than doing the whole process to each fitting one at a time.

Regarding the hull and deck liner fitting details, here's what I've found after drilling lots of holes in two 35 to 40 year old 22 and 25 Catalinas.

There is plywood reinforcement bonded to the horizontal, and large flat vertical, areas of the deck. The thickness of the plywood varies, depending upon the anticipated stress (thicker under winches and most cleats). Little effort went into also bonding the plywood to the liner. They weren't trying for core-between-2-skins construction.

Similar to the bent nail step described above, I use a Dremel 3/8" circular saw bit to remove additional core around around a hole before pouring in the fiber reinforced epoxy. As recommended by others above, I also pre-coat the core with unthickened epoxy to aid sealing and bonding.

If a hole in the deck seems to be taking more epoxy to fill than its volume should require, then the epoxy is likely running into a large air gap between the deck and liner. Try using thicker epoxy filler, at least there. You can do this on the fly, by pouring a teaspoon or so of the insufficiently thickened epoxy into a plastic bottle cap or similar, then stir in more thickener with a toothpick, nail, or whatever is handy. Then trowel that into the bottomless hole with a popsicle stick, toothpick, or whatever.

If dealing with a huge void, like no core to begin with, try shoving wadded up paper, foam rubber, or similar through the hole out into the surrounding void to form a mold around the hole.

When redrilling the filled holes to final diameter, I add a slight countersink in the deck to hold extra sealant, like a cast in place O-ring.

When trying to maintain an original bolt pattern and location for a multi-bolt part, I drill-fill-redrill only a portion of the holes at a time, using the others to position the hardware as a drill jig to redrill in the original spot.

� Leon Sisson

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2019 : 13:29:46

Leon's countersink is a good step. Adding to that, for optimal seal, I'll suggest:
1. Apply the sealant (I like Boatlife polysulfide Life Caulk for most purposes except plastic hardward--then Life Seal).
2. Set the hardware in place and just finger-tighten until sealant starts to squeeze out, then stop and let it set up for a day.
3. Then tighten slightly from below (turning the nut while holding the bolt stationary from above) to compress the "gasket"--this keeps the threads from shredding the seal around the bolt. It might be a two-person job, but it keeps water from migrating down the bolt itself. Water is relentless!

BTW, I assumed Leon didn't make up the "overdrill" technique, but he is famous here for promoting it over the past 20 years or so I've been following things here (starting when this was part of Trailersailor.com). When Leon speaks, I listen!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/11/2019 13:32:46

hbushey
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2019 : 21:26:01

Can someone elaborate as to the drill 2x, fill, drill procedure? I�m about to install some T track for a garhauer boarding ladder soon.

Heather and Scott
�Respite�
1989 C-25 TR/WK

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