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RandyAmy
1st Mate

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USA
40 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/26/2019 : 06:00:49

I'm sure this question is going to show my huge sailing inexperience as well as C25 sailing inexperience, having only sailed her for a partial season. 1980, SR, SK
We sail on an inland Indiana lake. Went out yesterday on winds, 11-14 with some gusts probably a little over 20. Decided to try my first attempt sailing on a reefed main alone. At one point we were on a starboard tack and attempted to tack to port. When doing to we would almost get dead into the wind and the boat wouldn't turn any further. I don't feel like we were in irons because the mainsail stayed fairly full, as well as being immediately able to fall off the wind. At that point we decided to gybe and head back down the lake.
I haven't had this happen before. Is this a characteristic of the sailing on reefed main alone? Characteristic of overall inexperience? Any help would be gratefully appreciated.

Randy Clason

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2019 : 06:30:25

One possibility is that you may be pushing the tiller too hard to leeward. The rudder then starts to act like a brake.

If you "steer" the boat through the tack you may see better results.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2019 : 06:44:40

Many discussions here have pointed to the headsail (jib or genoa) being the main driving force on the C-25. Our SR/FK didn't sail very well on main alone, but did fairly nicely on the full 130% genny alone, which was nice because it was on a roller furler. ("Pull one string and you're sailing; pull another and you're not.")

While main alone is not ideal, you may have been trying to tack in that strong breeze from a course that's a little too high, so without enough momentum... Try falling off a little and easing the sheet just a little before the tack, to increase your speed. Then trim in as you head back up into the tack.

Something I've probably said too often, for newer sailors (and in one case a friend who was an old one), is to be careful not to slam the tiller hard over to turn the boat, whether under sail or under power. It looses its "lift" that turns turns the boat, while generating a lot of drag--in other words, it becomes more like a brake than a rudder. (The churning sound tells the story.) Make a smooth motion with the tiller to no more than about 45 degrees.

EDIT: Hah! You can see I was writing while he was posting!

It's best, however, to use the headsail with the reefed main. The headsail has a lot more area down low, and less up high, so its heeling forces are considerably less. It can be amazing how comfortable you can be in a heavy, gusty day using that alone--the boat will lurch with the gusts, but stay pretty upright and composed.

Have fun with your experiments!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/26/2019 06:47:07

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2019 : 06:49:01

On a masthead rig boat like the C25, the boat is primarily driven by the jib. The mainsail's purpose is mostly to help the boat point to windward, and, compared to the jib, it only provides a little driving force. When you take away the jib, you take away the sail that provides the most drive. When you also reef the mainsail, you also take away most of it's drive too, leaving the boat without much power to drive the boat forward. With so little power driving it, the boat is incapable of generating much speed. When you try to tack the boat, even fairly small waves striking the bow can rub off whatever speed you have, and the boat doesn't have enough speed to coast across the eye of the wind and onto the other tack.

When you tack a sailboat, the boat is coasting, without power, from the moment the sail begins to luff on the old tack until the sail fills on the new tack. If you don't have enough boat speed, the boat won't be able to coast far enough to cross the eye of the wind.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2019 : 07:39:07

quote:
I don't feel like we were in irons because the mainsail stayed fairly full, as well as being immediately able to fall off the wind.

I'll just add that this statement is why I think the tiller/rudder is too far over.

While sailing close-hauled, the tiller should be close to the center line, if not, the main is probably over trimmed. Anyhow, when you are ready to tack, only a slight push to leeward should make the boat stand up, start to see a luff in the main. A slight more push should have the main luffing and start to come across. Slightly more push should bring it over all the way. Then,... may be a slight little more to leeward until the main fills. Then bring the tiller back to center and sail off on the new tack. Sounds simple, doesn't always work out.......

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Edited by - Davy J on 06/26/2019 07:56:10

RandyAmy
1st Mate

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USA
40 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2019 : 09:28:52

Thank you all for your input. I am going to try jib alone on the next breezy day, I have seen it discussed here a few times, wanted to try the different configurations.
Sounds like the consensus is that I may have been too hard over with the tiller causing me to lose speed for the tack.
Always appreciative of the knowledge base of the forum.

Randy Clason

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2019 : 10:32:57

Here is a bit more reading:

"How far the mainsheet can be trimmed to help the boat sail upwind
effectively is a function of wind velocity and boat speed. In more
wind, the mainsheet can be trimmed tighter without causing a
speed loss and pointing will improve. With less breeze, be careful
not to over-trim or the boat won�t accelerate. Keep in mind another
fundamental rule of sail trim: speed first, and then try to point.
Start with the mainsheet relatively eased and gradually trim harder
once the boat is up to speed."

Here is the link to the whole article:

https://www.quantumsails.com/getattachment/Resources-and-Expertise/Articles/Downloadable-Sail-Trim-Guides/QuantumSails_TrimGuide_Mainsail.pdf.aspx?lang=en-US

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2019 : 10:03:24

One more tip for sailing on the headsail alone... Coming out of a tack, don't harden the sail too quickly--keep it relatively eased so it's just full as you fall off to about a beam reach, so you gain some speed before you trim further as you start pointing up. Trimming too quickly can catch you without adequate speed, and cause the boat to spin dead-downwind because the keel isn't providing any lift. Patience is the keyword.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Grato
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2019 : 15:43:41

quote:
Originally posted by RandyAmy

I am going to try jib alone on the next breezy day, I have seen it discussed here a few times, wanted to try the different configurations.

I find sailing with the head sail only works very well downwind, but my C25 TR FK doesn't like to point unless I have the main up. She does very well with a reefed main and partial or full 110% head sail out in most conditions and will also point just fine with mainsail only (not reefed). I agree that flying just a reefed main doesn't make her feel too nimble..

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2019 : 07:14:14

Mark, you're right that a sailboat is very difficult to sail on a 110% jib alone, but they'll sail to windward very nicely on a 130 or 150% genoa alone. A sailboat needs a balance of sail pressures forward and aft of the boat's center of lateral resistance. When you take away the mainsail, you destroy that balance. When almost all the driving force of a 110% jib is forward of the boat's center of lateral resistance, the boat only wants to sail downwind. But with an overlapping jib, such as a 130 or 150, part of the jib extends aft of the center of lateral resistance, and helps to balance the sail pressures, and that enables the boat to sail nicely to windward despite the absence of a mainsail.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2019 : 20:08:32

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

...But with an overlapping jib, such as a 130 or 150, part of the jib extends aft of the center of lateral resistance, and helps to balance the sail pressures, and that enables the boat to sail nicely to windward despite the absence of a mainsail.

It also helps that the center of effort (thus heeling force) is much lower on a headsail than on a main. Add to that a roller furler, and you have a wonderful set-up for sailing comfortably to nowhere on a blustery day or sunset cruise--reach out, reach home, pull string, and done!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2019 : 20:28:00

Don't remember the last time I sailed with the main up. With a 150 and a roller I do exactly as Dave mentioned above. Boat sails nicely.

Almost like being a stinkpotter... but in slow motion.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 07/20/2019 20:29:10

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