Association Forum - What *is* Sikkens Cetol? Is Last N Last any good?

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

What *is* Sikkens Cetol? Is Last N Last any good?

New Topic

Reply to Topic

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Catalississippi
1st Mate

Member Avatar

USA
40 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/03/2020 : 13:11:00

Please excuse another wood refinishing post. I certainly plead a sizable amount of ignorance on this topic, and all input is appreciated. I wanted to ask specifically about Sikkens Cetol, suggested several times on this thread which I posted earlier in the year: http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=31809&SearchTerms=teak

In that post, I lamented the fact that my use of teak oil in the cabin resulted in mildew down here in the southern U.S. humidity. I was hoping one can of teak oil would let me refresh the wood both inside and outside the Suzy-Q.

I do know that picking the right wood finish depends on many factors, many of which depend on the personal preference of the sailor/wood finisher. Personally, I am not looking for a 2-part application that is labor intensive and requires a huge amount of prep work. (I realize that choice means I may have to sacrifice in other areas.) I certainly don't mind a little work, but I'm not wanting to spend dozens of man hours in trying to make my 30-year old boat look like new with a spit-shine gloss. The main things I want to accomplish are 1) protect and preserve the wood for a few years, 2) make the brightwork look a bit nicer, 3) without a huge amount of labor, 4) without a huge cost, and 5) if possible, using the same stuff for interior wood (drawers and steps) as on exterior wood.

It seems to that end, many have suggested Sikkens Cetol, specifically the marine line of products, as a nice compromise between a high-gloss varnish and a simple oil. What I have discovered about the stuff so far is that you can't find it locally (at least not here), and it's a bit pricey.

I could just order it online of course, but what I'm wondering is, what exactly *is* Cetol? Is it an oil? A spar varnish? Another type of varnish? - What *is* it?

And are there any other comparable products out there which do almost as well and which one could just pick up at a hardware store or even a Wal-Mart without having to special order? I mean, are they really the only game in town? I had a guy at a Sherwin-Williams store suggest Last N Last spar varnish. While not a boat guy, he said it doesn't involve a huge amount of prep work, protects against mildew (according to the can), and would get the job done within my listed desires above. Anyone know anything about Last N Last?

1980 Catalina 25 TR/SK #2098 ?????
Former owner of 1982 Catalina 25 TR/SK #3081 Suzy-Q

Catalississippi
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
40 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2020 : 13:30:49

One more thing -- Seems like I read somewhere that Cetol was an oil-based protectant that required only one coat, but I may have been reading about a slightly different product (perhaps their Proluxe) from their marine line.

Also, what about Helmsman Spar Urethane? Seems that stuff is readily for sale almost everywhere. Is it any good? Why don't sailors seem to discuss more common products? I have no doubt that there is something about finishing woodwork on a boat that I'm missing (as it's my first time to do so), but what exactly am I missing? Surely, there is a readily available product one could grab at the hardware store which would be acceptable, right? ..... or, not?

Thanks.

1980 Catalina 25 TR/SK #2098 ?????
Former owner of 1982 Catalina 25 TR/SK #3081 Suzy-Q

Edited by - Catalississippi on 06/03/2020 13:32:30

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2020 : 08:41:54

First I'll comment on "varnish" including spar, urethane, etc. In general, these products put a surface coating on wood--that coating is subject to splitting and cracking, which allows moisture to get under it and begin lifting it off the wood. This tends to be even more so with teak, which has a lot of natural oil in it that can cause varnish to lose its grip, especially when heat expands the oil and creates pressure under the finish. Once varnish starts cracking and peeling, there's just about no good solution except to remove it all and start over. That generally means removing the teak from the boat... Touching up and occasionally top-coating Cetol is quick and simple--a Scotch Pad is good preparation.

Cetol is also a finish, but it has some different characteristics. One (claimed) is it is somewhat permeable, so the natural oil and moisture in teak can pass through it--supposedly... Another is that its initial coat soaks into the wood, leaving what looks almost like unfinished teak with sort of a "wet look". Additional coats build up a smooth surface. Cetol is also a relatively soft finish, so damage can generally be smoothed out by sanding and touching up the area. Next, Cetol has pigment in it--slightly orange-brown in Cetol Marine, more yellow in Cetol Natural Teak, and less color overall in Cetol Light. (I preferred the Marine.) That pigment is, as I understand it, primarily for UV protection--thus Cetol Light provides less than the others. The pigment de-emphasizes the grain somewhat, but that can be nice with older teak that tends to streak.

Then there's Cetol Gloss, which has no pigment and is intended only as a top-coat over the other products--like "clear coating" a car. That's just a matter of taste--I preferred the satin finish of Cetol Marine.

What is comparable from the hardware store? Sorry--I don't know. I suspect there's a reason that Cetol is Cetol, and everyone knows about it. (Some love it, some hate it.) "YMMV."

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/04/2020 08:57:28

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2020 : 08:53:08

One more thing: I generally wouldn't use Cetol in the interior. First, it isn't really needed where UV is not an issue. Second, as I mentioned, it's a "soft" finish that probably isn't ideal for companionway steps, or the fiddles around the sink area, for example. And the tint probably isn't desirable down below. A hardware store product a number of people have used below is Howard Resor-A-Finish, which wipes on and wipes off, bringing back the natural color. Their Golden Oak seems to be a favorite for not darkening the interior. Tung oil is another available option that, with a few coats, creates more of a finish.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2020 : 09:33:15

I second Dave's suggestions - Cetol for the exterior and Howard's_Restore-a-Finish for the interior teak. I did use Cetol for the companionway steps and put non-skid strips on them as a safety measure.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2020 : 09:34:42

Varnishes and polyurethanes look good when freshly done, but they deteriorate. The only way to make them look good again is to strip them and start over.

Cetol can be refreshed fairly easily with a light sanding and brushing on another coat or two. IMO, Cetol lasts about as long as the alternatives.

I made sunbrella covers for my grab rails and hatch boards to shield the teak from rain and UV, and they will make any finish much more long lasting.

I have no idea what Cetol is made of and have never heard of any similar, less costly product. One can lasts awhile for grab rails and hatch boards, and to me, that, as well as it's ease of use, makes it's cost more tolerable.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Catalississippi
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
40 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2020 : 12:10:45

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

What is comparable from the hardware store? Sorry--I don't know. I suspect there's a reason that Cetol is Cetol, and everyone knows about it. (Some love it, some hate it.) "YMMV."

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

I have no idea what Cetol is made of and have never heard of any similar, less costly product. One can lasts awhile for grab rails and hatch boards, and to me, that, as well as it's ease of use, makes it's cost more tolerable.

Thanks, y'all. Maybe it really is truly proprietary and there really is no other product like it. But it still seems odd that we can't even categorize it. I'm looking into "spar varnish," as well, and it appears to me there hasn't been much recent activity on here about spar varnish. And the phrase "last n last" (brand name sold at Sherwin-Williams) doesn't seem to have made it to the forum ever.

1980 Catalina 25 TR/SK #2098 ?????
Former owner of 1982 Catalina 25 TR/SK #3081 Suzy-Q

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2020 : 15:13:32

If I may ...
Cetol is sold by Sikkens and you can buy it at a boating store for the big bucks or at paint stores for a little less. We have Benjamin Moore paint shops in our area and most of them carry Cetol.

I have a cedar deck outside my back door and it has had a coat of Cetol on it for 22 years. Every five years or so I�ll wire brush, sand or power wash it, then reapply 2-3 coats. Cedar takes a lot but if you don�t keep it up it will eventually rot. So far so good.

I also use it on my boat�s brightwork and I touch it up every other year, but once every 5 years I sand it all back down to smooth and refinish it from scratch. I get a lot of compliments. Mostly I just like the look and low maintenance. Star Brite Teak Sealer may be an alternative to Cetol, but at $45 a quart, it�s no less costly than Cetol.

Urethane coatings, also sometimes known as urethane varnish (which is a very general term) are hard and will crack with heat and cold. I tried it on my tiller early on and it quickly turned to crap. I stripped it down and replaced the coating with a traditional varnish without urethane. Rustoleum spar varnish is one brand, just avoid spar urethane.

Problem with spar varnish is eventually it will wear, crack or get dinged, so once water intrudes underneath you have to sand it back and recoat it. Because spar varnish can give you a mirror-like finish, you�ll notice the repair especially on a large flat area. I don�t mind repairing dings on the tiller so I rarely strip it and refinish it. I touch it up constantly.

Lacquer is very finicky and is alcohol soluble so is not good for exterior, and not all that great for interiors where you might spill a drink. That said, you can create some beautiful furniture finishes using lacquer

Teak oil, Tung oil and Semko sealer are fine for low-maintenance brightwork. You never have to sand or strip but every three months you�ll have to apply another coat or two. It goes on fast and easy though. To avoid mold, try some concrobium spray. It will stop the mold. Not sure whether it will affect the finish, but I�ve used it on wood to eliminate mold, then wiped it down with a rag, and applied furniture polish. Came back pretty well.

Hope that gives you a few ideas.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2020 : 17:46:02

Checking out Last N Last, it looks like it�s a non urethane varnish. It appears to include some UV protectant, prevents mold and mildew and it resists cracking, chipping, etc. It�s probably a little like Rustoleum spar varnish, although they call it marine and door varnish. Absolute Coatings is the manufacturer.

Here�s the manufacturers website:
https://absolutecoatings.com/product/last-n-last-marine-door-spar-varnish/

Here�s a retailer:
https://www.thepaintstore.com/Last-n-Last-Marine-Door-Spar-Varnish-p/94001.htm

It could be a great kind of varnish. The cost looks pretty good. I�ll be interested in your results if you decide to try it out.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2020 : 16:16:02

...but if you're looking for easy maintenance in the longer therm, varnish is at the opposite end of the spectrum. That's why you don't varnish your picnic table.

Here at the Mystic Seaport, the beautiful historic schooner Brilliant gets a new coat on its gleaming brightwork every year--by a literal army swarming all over her. I know other yacties who have theirs professionally re-done in boatyard sheds each winter... Write a check, get a beautiful piece of nautical furniture. Whatever... (My exterior "teak" on Sarge is now fake.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2020 : 16:46:51

Dave, I agree that varnishing takes a lot of upkeep. My paragraph 5 in my post �If I may� on 06/04/2020 @ 15:13:32 warns that varnish will definitely crack and leak At some point during the season.

I use varnish for my tiller and accept that I have to lightly sand it and touch it up a few times a season. If I did not have Cetol, I�d probably use varnish, but I�m glad that I don�t have to.

The L-N-L literature describes how long-lasting it is, so perhaps it resists cracking better than your average varnish, after all it is called �Lasts N Lasts�. If there is still any truth in advertising or honor among thieves, it should provide good solid coverage for a lot longer time than your average varnish, you�d reckon.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2020 : 18:07:33

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

The L-N-L literature describes how long-lasting it is, so perhaps it resists cracking better than your average varnish, after all it is called �Lasts N Lasts�. If there is still any truth in advertising or honor among thieves, it should provide good solid coverage for a lot longer time than your average varnish, you�d reckon.

Ya, by being a urethane...

I dropped my Practical Sailor subscription decades ago (when their subscription service tried to pull a fast one on me), but I'd want to see their opinion on this. They're the Consumer Reports of marine products--totally data-driven with no ad revenues.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2020 : 05:02:47

I googled Practical Sailor and an older article showed up. I too had a past subscription. This might be hard to read online, but interesting... https://www.practical-sailor.com/boat-maintenance/paints/varnish-exposure-test

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2020 : 12:35:07

From Bruces P/S link to varnish reviews, I "searched" for Cetol and found several articles, including this one. I'm a little surprised--P/S used to provide their articles on-ine to subcribers only.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/06/2020 12:37:18

Catalississippi
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
40 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2020 : 01:18:24

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

...but if you're looking for easy maintenance in the longer therm, varnish is at the opposite end of the spectrum.

Yes, this is my concern. Is Last n Last spar varnish the same (with the same maintenance issues) as varnish? Or should I just pick up a can of Helmsman spar urethane?

1980 Catalina 25 TR/SK #2098 ?????
Former owner of 1982 Catalina 25 TR/SK #3081 Suzy-Q

Edited by - Catalississippi on 06/07/2020 01:19:31

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2020 : 06:27:15

If you�re asking me, I would not use varnish or polyurethane on your teak They will fail in months or next year and you�ll have to strip and reapply something. I use varnish on the tiller because I handle it a lot.

The PS article posted by Stinkpotter above gave the two real choices saying it like this:

�there seem to be two schools of thought when it comes to teak maintenance: One group simply wants the finish to last as long as possible without the need for attention, while another group is willing to provide frequent periodic maintenance-typically every few months-as long as that maintenance is easy.�

Teak oils consist of the more frequent but easy category. Wash the teak, then rub on a few coats of teak oil. Easy-peasy. Teak oil, Tung oil, Semco, etc. if you get mildew, spray on Concrobium and repeat.

The article also recommends more long lasting products. Cetol, Teak Armada and some two-part coatings.

Either way it probably cost the same in the long run. A quart of teak oil is about 1/4 or 1/3 the price of Cetol, but you have to apply it 3 or 4 times as often.

Edit note: I�m really glad that you asked the original question. You got the conversation going and I really learned a lot about what each coating is and why I use what I use.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 06/07/2020 06:58:51

Catalississippi
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
40 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2020 : 12:22:15

Thanks, Bruce. And thanks to everyone for their comments.

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

If you�re asking me, I would not use varnish or polyurethane on your teak

Yes, I agree for the same reasons, and I do not want to use polyurethane, but I thought I had understood that helmsman spar urethane was not a polyurethane but rather just a urethane. No �poly.� Although I do not understand the technicalities of that, I believe I read on here in another (archived) post that this means it is more resistant to cracking than a polyurethane and can be touched up unlike a polyurethane.

quote:

�there seem to be two schools of thought when it comes to teak maintenance: One group simply wants the finish to last as long as possible without the need for attention, while another group is willing to provide frequent periodic maintenance-typically every few months-as long as that maintenance is easy.

I am definitely in the former group, but you do make some good points about the cost over time equaling out which I had not thought about. Thanks again.

1980 Catalina 25 TR/SK #2098 ?????
Former owner of 1982 Catalina 25 TR/SK #3081 Suzy-Q

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2020 : 13:46:17

I believe that you are correct, urethane is one thing and polyurethane is another since polymers are either linked or chained versions of their individual molecules. Here is an article about paints and the differences between polyurethanes and acrylic urethanes.
Polyurethane is harder while acrylic urethanes are softer and more malleable.

Paraphrasing Dr. Bones McCoy from the original Star Trek, �dammit Jim, I�m a sailor, not a materials scientist!�

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 06/07/2020 13:47:23

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2020 : 14:31:14

Just a note that there is Helmsman Spar Urethane and also Helmsman Spar Varnish. Don't confuse the two.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2020 : 08:33:29

Good point Islander.
Here�s another approach proposed by YouTuber �Boatworks Today�. He suggests using a few coats of epoxy as your base coat, then a single coat of Varnish.

See https://youtu.be/IqiXZrs5hvM

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Topic

New Topic

Reply to Topic

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.