Association Forum - Gin Pole Redesign

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Gin Pole Redesign

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

2269 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/07/2014 : 21:37:41

Four years ago I built a gin pole for lowering/raising my mast. The original development of my design (and others' precursors to it) is covered in this archived thread. I've used it every year ever since:

<center>

</center>

Note that rather than use line through a block, I instead use a trailer strap through a trailer roller, which acts as a heavy-duty block. I really liked this heavy-duty arrangement.

And it worked flawlessly until the past year. Over time, as the 2x4 has aged and dried out, it developed a bit of a twist, so its two ends are not level with each other. Last spring while raising the mast, this caused the winch strap to pull to the side, and it jumped off the roller and jammed in the crack between the roller and the sheet metal roller brace. It was a serious failure, because with the strap jammed, the resulting torquing from the off-center strap almost twisted the pole off the mast. It's hard to envision - you sort of had to be there.

So I need to do some redesign. I've bought a new 2x4, since the old twisted one is definitely problematic. I could just replace the 2x4 and keep the same design. But I wondered if it might be better to replace the roller with a block shackled to an eyebolt at the end of the pole. It would probably be more self-centering and therefore not likely to foul or torque the pole. I'd have to replace the strap with line, and I really hate using line on a winch because of its tendency to bind under tension (like can happen with furler line on a loosely wound furler drum).

Additionally, the blocks I have available have a maximum working load of 300 lb, and my rough calculations show that I may exceed that:

<center>

</center>

I'm wondering if, for something that I use just twice a year, it would be better just to put an additional eyebolt into the end of the 2x4 (without any block) to act as a fairlead, and just pass the line through it. Yes, there would be some friction as the line turns about 90 degrees through the fairlead, but I'm only winching about 15' of line through it at slow speed, so friction and chafe should be negligible.

Suggestions?

Note to C25 owners: The A-frame design does not work well on a C250 due to different positioning of the chainplates. Gin pole and baby stays (for which I use ratchet straps) are the preferred design for this boat.

Edited by - TakeFive on 04/24/2015 20:43:08

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2269 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2014 : 07:40:24

To better clarify what I'm considering, here is a rough sketch of the gin pole. Two eyebolts on top of the mast are oriented fore-aft (for connecting two halyards to the mast), one on top of the pole is oriented side to side for attaching baby stays (winch straps) which keep the pole in column (see above pictures for reference). The new eyebolt on the bottom of the pole is oriented side to side to act as a fairlead for the winching line, with no block.

<center>

</center>

Another option, if I want to take my chances with the block, is to add an additional eyebolt on the bottom of the pole. I attach the block to the one closest to the end of the pole, and the second one acts as a redundant fairlead that rescues the rig if the block suddenly fails.

Edited by - TakeFive on 11/08/2014 16:32:14

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2269 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2014 : 17:31:48

I went ahead and built the new gin pole today. I replaced the twisted 2x4, removed the trailer roller and replaced it with an eyebolt. I decided to forego shackling a block on because it's just one more potential failure point, and the friction is not that much.

As I was winding my 5/16" double braid onto the winch, I was reminded of another reason why I prefer winch straps. It was virtually impossible to get an even wind on the winch - there were lumps and bumps, and very soon the line started rubbing against the very sharp sheet metal on the mounting plate. I could see it almost cutting into the braid - and this was in my house, where I was trying my best to even out the wraps. I can't imagine being able to do this on my cabin top while raising the mast and simulataneously worrying about shrouds getting kinked, etc. With a winch strap, you never worry about an even wrap.

Then it occurred to me - if I just curl the winch strap through the eyebolt, it will create a little friction, but not enough to cause any problem for something I do twice a year. So I'm using the winch strap with the eyebolt. (Pics below)

As I was doing this today, it suddenly occurred to me that running the winch strap through the trailer roller was an unstable arrangement. By that I mean that any slight twist of the pole would cause the strap to go to the low side of the roller, which would in turn twist the pole more, causing the strap to move further to the side, until the strap comes completely off the roller and jams in the space between the roller and the metal brace (see pic below). This didn't happen in the first couple of years, but as the gin pole acquired its twist, it happened more and more each time I used it, until the strap completely came out of the roller when the mast was halfway up last spring.

I'll report on how it went after I drop the mast. Meanwhile, here's a video I did of the mast lowering a couple years ago. Click the "HD" to see the best quality:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=3989656028581&l=8164384695698815524

<center>

</center>

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2269 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2014 : 06:51:11

FYI, I lowered the mast yesterday. It was uneventful. The winch strap did get some wrinkles in it from being forced through the narrow eyebolt, but no permanent damage that I could see. I will have to monitor for fraying over time, but since I only use it twice a year I think its lifetime will exceed mine.

As in past years, I secured the mast to the gin pole using TWO lines - jib halyard to the top of the mast, and a second line to a harness under the spreaders. I want redundancy for that critical attachment. You can see these dual lines in the Facebook video that I linked above.

This afternoon I will build a sawhorse in the cockpit to support the mast (more secure than the mast crutch in a hard blow), then in a few days I'll build my PVC substructure and throw a tarp over the whole thing for the winter.

Photos from past years:

<center>

</center>

Edited by - TakeFive on 11/11/2014 06:54:38

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2269 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2015 : 20:15:44

I had to abort my mast raising the other day. As the mast was going up, the eyebolt that I had run the winch strap through was deforming, and I immediately lowered it again out of fear that the rig might fail catastrophically.

This was a 3/8" eyebolt. I replaced it with a 1/2" eyebolt, which was up to the task. The mast went up today without incident, although it's alway REAL TOUGH getting the clevis pin through the chainplate at the stem. The sag created by the weight of the furler makes it real tough to extend the forestay to the chainplate. I had my wife use our 18' boat pole to lift the forestay up, eliminating the sag. Here are some other pictures from before we raised the mast:

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 04/21/2015 20:18:39

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1297 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2015 : 19:10:45

Appreciate your detailed photo's and the way you have approached raising and lowering the mast. It seems that you would have to plan well ahead and need to gather all the materials required. I would love to get some insight as to why you would not want to use

1) a regular aluminum gin pole supplied as standard equipment with the boat. (ours is cut in half and sleeved for easy storage in the port or starboard coaming)

2) regular standard snap and hook-on baby stay's to keep the mast in column (standard equipment and stored on the boat)

3) instead of the wood saw horse, creating point loads on the lids of the storage lockers, would it not be better to use a standard mast crutch with pintle and gudgeons and tie lines to both stern seats. (standard equipment and stored on the boat)

The tools (equipment), mentioned are of the right measurement and would allow you to lower and raise the mast anytime, anywhere on water or on the dry.

BTW I like the trailer winch and strap idea

Henk & Johanna
"Floating", a few off your "barnacles".
"Someday Lady" '95 C250WB #151 ('03 - 2016)
"Sea ya" 30ft Bayliner (04-2018 - 09-2018)
"Mariah" '96 C250WB #191 (05-2019 - 15-05-2023)
"Lady J" '00 C250WK #499 (05-2021 - 09-2022)

Edited by - zeil on 04/22/2015 19:15:52

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2269 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2015 : 19:47:46

quote:
Originally posted by zeil

Appreciate your detailed photo's and the way you have approached raising and lowering the mast. It seems that you would have to plan well ahead and need to gather all the materials required. I would love to get some insight as to why you would not want to use

1) a regular aluminum gin pole supplied as standard equipment with the boat. (ours is cut in half and sleeved for easy storage in the port or starboard coaming)

2) regular standard snap and hook-on baby stay's to keep the mast in column (standard equipment and stored on the boat)

3) instead of the wood saw horse, creating point loads on the lids of the storage lockers, would it not be better to use a standard mast crutch with pintle and gudgeons and tie lines to both stern seats. (standard equipment and stored on the boat)

The tools (equipment), mentioned are of the right measurement and would allow you to lower and raise the mast anytime, anywhere on water or on the dry.

BTW I like the trailer winch and strap idea

There are multiple reasons:

The things that you describe as "standard equipment" are not standard equipment any more, and I am told that many of them were discontinued by the time my boat was built. The Catalina gin pole only came on very early boats (my mast has no hole for it) - they have since built the mast raising equipment onto the trailer (my boat has no trailer). The baby stays only were supplied with trailer boats.

I received some quotes from Catalina for some of these parts. After waiting a few weeks for the quote, many of the quoted parts were incorrect for my need (needed a trailer, that I lacked), exorbitantly priced, and/or had such long lead times that it would be halfway through the winter before I received them. So I had to make my own parts to get the mast down before winter.

For instance, the baby stays only support the mast. But the gin pole also needs to stay "in column" too. So a set of four winch straps gives support to both the mast and the gin pole.

FWIW, whether a gin pole is made of wood or tubular metal, I do not like the idea of cutting it in half. The buckling forces on the pole can be quite large, and are at their maximum right at the midpoint - exactly where the sleeve would be.

The wood saw horse is very stable, and provides supplemental support for the winter cover. I calculated that the dynamic stresses on the gudgeons created by the mast stepper ($180+shipping) are big enough to cause spider cracks in the transom. I use my own wood stepper only for raising and lowering the mast, but for long term storage under a cover, the saw horse is much more stable, especially if we get a foot of snow.

I have zero interest in ever raising the mast on the water. One poorly timed wake, or even stepping side-to-side on the boat, could create quite a hazard during the mast raising or lowering. Baby stays are so short that that stresses are very high. To raise or lower the mast, I want the boat firmly on stands, and light winds at most.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1297 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2015 : 23:52:53

Hope you purchased your boat for half price... (just kidding)

Appreciate your innovative ways of doing things. However, it is good to benefit from years of history and plenty experience.

1) The Catalina supplied gin pole cut, for storage purposes, in half and sleeved with a 9"long stainless steel sleeve is showing no signs of fatigue, cracks, bents or weakness at the joint after many mast raising and lowering sessions both on the water and on the trailer next to a ramp. (We do not use additional gin pole straps)

2) Baby stays originally supplied and designed by Catalina have provided, over the years, adequate support to the mast raising/lowering while floating, during windy conditions and even sometimes on a slightly uneven surfaces. During windy conditions, if we can, we do try to point the bow downwind just to be sure and whenever possible look for flat surfaces

3) During years and many, many miles of travel carrying the mast on the stern crutch and supported by the pintles and gudgeons without observing fatigue, hairlines or, upon close inspection, any signs of trouble. And yes... we do tarp during overwintering experiencing wind and sometimes some snow-loads. The mast support is tied on both port and starboard sides. We do, in addition, support the mast from the tabernacle with an custom made oak support.

So... rest assured that, unless higher hull numbers are constructed to different standards, the supplied mast raising equipment/support even with modifications, is simple, effective and proven to be designed to the job.

Having stated all this, we remain alert, a little apprehensive and check and double check all actions.

Jack Schafer
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
112 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2015 : 11:35:28

Rick, I have the original mast raising equipment,Hull 106, and it works well. I also only use it twice a year. One thing that I did was to add a spinnaker block to the head of the mast to fly a drifter. What this does also enables me to use that halyard to pull the mast forward to help take the slack out of roller furling foil and attach the forstay to the chainplate. Takes the struggle out of that last 1 inch!

Jack Schafer, previous owner of 2ndWind 250WB #106,

2nd Wind

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2269 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2015 : 15:03:03

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Schafer

Rick, I have the original mast raising equipment,Hull 106, and it works well. I also only use it twice a year. One thing that I did was to add a spinnaker block to the head of the mast to fly a drifter. What this does also enables me to use that halyard to pull the mast forward to help take the slack out of roller furling foil and attach the forstay to the chainplate. Takes the struggle out of that last 1 inch!

Jack, thanks for your comment. It got me to thinking about one possible problem with my setup. But first, I need to ask you: What does the spinnaker halyard give you that my jib halyard doesn't already offer? If you look closely at my pictures, you'll see that there are two "foretriangles" lifting the mast. I have the jib halyard going to the top of the mast, and a second line from the end of the gin pole to the middle of the mast (just beneath the spreaders). I wanted redundancy for these lines so that the mast has no chance of buckling, and also just in case one gives way for some reason.

But that redundancy also may have caused a bit of a problem earlier this week. I noticed that once I had the mast up, the line going to beneath the spreaders was causing significant "pre-bend" in the mast. If I had loosened that line a bit, I could have applied more tension to the jib halyard and probably had an easier time getting the forestay attached. I try to get both lines about equal tension prior to winching up the gin pole, but I'm sure it's a little different each year, and this year there was more tension in the lower line, which reduced the tension at the masthead. I'll have to remember that next year.

Also, in comment to the lack of baby stays on the Catalina aluminum gin pole, I believe that they use a block and tackle arrangement that is lighter weight than my 2x4 with winch. So perhaps when you insert the pole into the hole in the mast (which my mast does not have), it stays vertical without the need for support. In the case of my pole, it is too heavy and unstable to stay vertical, so the winch straps are a big help at keeping both the mast and the gin pole in column. It's just an inherent part of my design. After analyzing the stresses involved, I was more comfortable with a winch than I was with a block and tackle arrangement. And I was more comfortable attaching the winch to the flat 2x4 than I was to a round aluminum pole. (Plus, the only sources I was finding for a sufficiently thick aluminum pole were charging $50-100 for it, as you can see in the original thread from four years ago.) I'm not saying my design was better, it was just quicker to fabricate and more economical for my twice-a-year usage.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 04/24/2015 20:44:08

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1297 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2015 : 16:15:47

Yes... we also use the spinnaker halyard for security reasons and the last little bit

A modified mast to gin pole arrangement

Jack Schafer
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
112 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2015 : 09:30:26

The jib halyard and the block and tackle are used to raise the mast also, but the weight and sag of the furler causes a problem of attaching the forestay to the chain plate. With someone pulling the spinnaker halyard, extended forward of the boat, you can gain enough to attach the forestay.

Jack Schafer, previous owner of 2ndWind 250WB #106,

2nd Wind

Albanker
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
40 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2016 : 06:39:05

Take Five. Was that a stainless eye?

Albanker
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
40 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2016 : 06:42:53

Also. Any merit to adding some metal strengthening to the 2by 4

Albanker
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
40 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2016 : 11:31:20

Sorry--- got most of the parts now--- however how are the 2 pieces of 2 by 4 connected together securely?

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2269 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2016 : 21:57:29

quote:
Originally posted by Albanker

Take Five. Was that a stainless eye?

Zinc coated steel. No need for stainless because it is never left outside. Plus stainless is weaker.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

TEM58
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2016 : 06:50:40

I had an issue with that type of eye bolt on a similar project. Try this type instead--

http://www.lowes.com/pd_43747-1277-DP3260BC___?productId=3436576&pl=1&Ntt=eye+bolts

Tim M
�Perfect Match II�
2003 C350 #35
Cruising FL
PO "Wine Down"
2000 C250 WK #453
PO "Perfect Match"
1983 C25 SR/SK #3932
Lake Belton
Belton, TX

kjk
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2016 : 18:17:11

Rick, I need to raise and lower my mast a couple of times this spring and I am looking at your design. Is the 2x4 7.5 feet? What size is the spare tire bracket that you are using as a u bolt? Also, how is that mounted to the top of the 2.4?

Kevin J. Kiely
Rockport, MA
1999WK
Hull # 407

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2269 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2016 : 07:58:21

Last weekend while raising my mast, I heard some cracking in the lumber as the mast went up. Upon inspection afterwards, the 2x4 had started cracking down the centerline around the eyebolt penetrations. It was not catastrophic - but it could have been. I will not use that design again without modifications to prevent this issue from happening.

Feel free to use this thread for further discussion of potential gin pole designs, but I strongly discourage using my design shown above without revisions to address this issue. Most likely I will go back to the trailer roller, as it is very strong, but with some modification to ensure that the strap cannot jump off the side of the roller (as had happened in the past).

ANYTHING YOU DO TO RAISE/LOWER YOUR OWN MAST IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY, AND DONE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

The original Catalina 250 mast raising system, based on a metal tube, was discontinued very early in the C250 production run and replaced with a winch system that is built into the trailer (for those who have trailers). The subsequent C250 boats do not have the required hole in the mast for inserting the metal gin pole, and I am not willing to drill such a hole for fear of damaging the masthead wires and surrounding conduit. So that pretty much eliminates the original Catalina-supplied gin pole as an option.

Here are some photos of the cracking in the 2x4:

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

kjk
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2016 : 18:56:50

Is your 2 x 4 PT or not? I used a bracket to reinforce one end, but not the end you have cracking. Considering the force on it, there may be a shelf life.

Also, feel free to use this as a release of any liability that could ensue from a person copying a privately designed and manufactured tool published on a social media site for their own, unsupervised, unsanctioned, unapproved, noncommercial use.

Kevin J. Kiely
Rockport, MA
1999WK
Hull # 407

528
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
181 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2016 : 20:08:11

I have to say, the shelf life could have been anywhere from the first use on. You're very lucky. If I were to even consider lumber, which I wouldn't, it would be oak or locust at a minimum.

ruachwrights
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2016 : 08:50:50

Thanks. Every so often I think about getting a truck and a trailer and then I'll have need for your design.

Vern Wright
Hajime

97 Catalina 250 TR/ WK
Hull #301
Attleboro, MA

Sailynn
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2016 : 11:28:25

as stated above never use wood. it is not worth the damage it can do to your boat and bodies in the area. I have personally seen three wooden gin poles shatter and the mast dropping and shards of wood flying every where. every time I had warned the person of the danger and they said it was hard wood. I walked away from the explosion area so not to get injured before they exploded. The dollars in damage you can do is not worth the difference in the cost of metal vs. wood IMHO.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.