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John L Murphy
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/29/2016 : 08:05:36

Hello Everyone,

Just wanted to get some recommendations for solar panels. What size do you recommend? I have two batteries connected and a third on board as a backup. I want to get away from shore power and want a good reliable charging system. Should I rig a permanent set up or can I use the kind that you roll out on deck to save space? Thanks in advance. The kids will be looking for Fathers Day gifts, so this could be a good opportunity!

John

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2016 : 08:58:44

Hi Everyone,

Well, not sure what you have against shore power but I do agree with your desire for a solar charging system. As for the type, my research says that monocrystaline is the best way to go. Size will depend on your expectations. Sense you wish to be shore power independent you will need to do the daily amps/watts usage calculations to determine the best size for your needs. That may end up being a couple of 80 watt panels for a total of 160 watts. But as I said, you need to run the calculations to find out your requirements.
For myself, all I will be looking for is a charging system that will either maintain or slowly charge my batteries for over the week to 10 days that I will be away from the boat. I have decided to start with a 15 watt system and then monitor my results. I may need to double it. We'll have to see. Do install a charge controller. Good luck.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2016 : 09:19:37

Depends on what you want to accomplish. For trickle charging without shore power, I used a 5 watt solar panel mounted on the stern rail. I picked it up at wally world:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/5W-Solar-Panel-for-All-Weather/19801093

For more power while out cruising I rigged up an 80 watt Kyocera. Thread on that from a few years ago:

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=22843

My current boat has three solar panels. One large 145 watt panel and two 50 watt panels I added, which I purchased on eBay, claimed that they were "semi-flexible". They are mounted on the hard top. Those two panels are less than two years old and they are not holding up very well. Plastic is crazing, getting foggy and I will need to try to repair them or replace. So anyway, avoid the cheap plastic ones on eBay..........

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

John L Murphy
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2016 : 10:21:24

I am not on the boat all of the time. Just want to be sure of battery power when I am out and would only like to buy one system. So I guess my needs lie somewhere in the middle. Any thoughts on this system? -
http://www.windynation.com/Polycrystalline-Solar-Kits/Windy-Nation-Inc/Eco-Solar-Kit-100-Watt-12-Volt-Solar-Panel-with-User-Settable-LCD-Charge-Controller-RV-Boat-Off-Grid/-/641?p=YzE9NDY=

Edited by - John L Murphy on 05/29/2016 10:28:32

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2016 : 13:56:32

At 40x27" and 19lbs where were you going to put that?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2016 : 14:47:08

I have one group 27 battery and a 30W panel that's maybe 18"X 30". Fits right on the cockpit seat when I'm away from the boat (like most of the time). If I had 2 group 27 batteries I'd probably have two 30W panels. One on each seat. 7A charge controller would handle two panels fine. With a third battery then I'd estimate 90-100W. That would supply about 4.5A.
I would have run out of cockpit seats by then ;-)
This however is predicated upon the fact that I have a 12A alternator on my Honda outboard. Without that I'd go for maybe 120-150W total. You'd also need a beefier charge controller. Space is then the issue. You might could put them on the seats and cabintop, but finding a place to stow them below could be a challenge.
What exactly do you do with three batteries?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2016 : 17:13:13

Wow, I feel inadequate. I only have a 10 watt panel. Between the 10 amp engine charger and the panel my battery is always ready to go. I admit that my power draw isn't that much. Daysailing with the usual radio,chartplotter, Depth and occasional water pump but I haven't been hooked to shore power in 5 yrs.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2016 : 03:53:37

I have a 20 watt fixed/rigid panel with 2 batteries and use light loads and this panel has been fine for going on over 10 years. First set of batteries lasted over 7 years and still had some juice left but since I had bought a (marine) battery for backup for my home sump pump when one hurricane came rolling in a few years back, I decided to buy another and change out my batteries.

Since you have 3 batteries, if you use light loads, then a 30 watt panel will probably be sufficient unless you use the boat frequently with nav lights on and also use it frequently to run a boom box, etc.

I would recommend a rigid panel unless you are not happy with keeping it semi-permanently attached. A rigid panel comes with the longest warranties compared to a flexi-panel which typically have 3 years or less warranties vs 10/20 year warranties for rigid panels. Also a rigid panel has the smallest footprint for max wattage/amps. You should be able to get a 30 watt rigid with dimensions approximately 20" x 20". (My 20 watt is 20" x 14".) A rigid panel that you put away each time is okay but then it is another thing to add on for putting away and taking out each time you go sailing.

There are many postings in the archives regarding the pro/con of different size/capacity panels and permanent vs portable type setups. Flooded batteries lose a bit more charge daily just sitting around vs AGMs and Gels. But flooded batteries are more forgiving regarding charging methods (voltage and amps), though, almost all new solar controllers have switch positions for each type battery. A flooded battery for trickle charging considerations loses about .4A/day in the summer and about .25A/day in the winter. (So...for 3 batteries you would be losing about 1.2A/day for 7 days = 8.4A per week, definitely not more than 10A/week if you figured closer to .5A loss each battery per day during summer months. Less loss per winter months. ) The other battery types lose a bit less each day, proportionately. So, for starters, figure out your potential loads each week and conservatively how many days of sunshine each week and how many hours each day of max vs min solar charging and whatever the panel is rated out, figure that on average you will not get the max of it's rating, although, some may find that they do get the max. For example, my panel is now over 10 years old and it has been fairly consistent in providing about .8/.9A max each day for several hours and then during a few hours on each end of that period, it provides about .2/.4A. That is for a 20 Watt panel. Trickle charging for 3 batteries, if each gets charged the same amount, you would need at least 9-10A per week without using any loads (ie. depthfinder/fishfinder, occasional nav lights/steaming light, etc). Just a 20 watt panel figure 5 days sunshine per week and on sunny days (.8 x 3 hrs, .4A x 3hrs) figure an average charging of ~ 3.6A x 5 days = 18A per week. Depending on conservatism you build into it, others could predict more or less charging per week for a 20 watt. You will need a minimum of ~ 10A per week just for trickle charging 3 batteries and so that leaves you only 8A for the loads you use each week and so a 30 watt would probably be better suited for your use. If you tend to use more loads during the week (ie. Cabin lights and 2-3 nights of evening sailing with nav light use, boom box and if cabin lights non-LED then that is a larger load depending on how many lights on and how long), then a large panel would be adviseable.

There is another issue that you may have to consider or may get away with is that some go to a separator/isolator or a combiner when you have more than one battery. I have two batteries and I do not use a combiner but you have 3 batteries and so maybe a bit more of a concern. These isolators or what is more commonly used these days , I believe, is a combiner keeps the charge from one battery from charging a weaker battery. In other words, when you have more than one battery, sometimes there is an issue if one of your batteries has deficiencies and is weaker. It winds up drawing down the better battery. A separator/isolater or combiner, they basically perform the same function and that is to prevent one battery from discharging to a weaker battery. I am not saying you have to get one of those devices which will complicate your wiring but best to read a bit about combiners to at least know why they sell these devices and it would be good to find out what other's experiences have been. I have never had an issue with the over 7 yr old batteries I replaced but it is is too early to predict how my 3 yr old AGMs will perform in the later years. So far, they have been fine.

Getting back to rigid panels. My 20 watt is mounted a little high above my outboard and allows the outboard to be removed, if necessary, without taking down my panel. My panel can be removed fairly easy since I used wing nuts and I also put addl holes in the mount to tilt the panel in direction of the sun when it is lower in the sky during the winter months. My boat is in the water year-round and batteries never go home for charging or off-season. I only removed my panel one time and that is when rewiring my mast. More photos and details regarding the solar panel set up on my website.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 05/31/2016 04:24:43

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2016 : 04:16:30

Oh - Forgot to mention, I briefly reviewed the panel you are considering. I did not have time to look at all details nor research/review the quality of the product. The price and the capacity are definitely what catches ones eye. Fantastic price and 100 watt is more than you would need which upon first glance one would say - Wow ! Great deal ! But I question the need for a 100 watt panel and the footprint is quite large...One dimension is...46" ! That is a quite a large panel to be dealing with each time if not set up permanently and a pretty big panel to mount. The cost is extremely low which I question the quality of the individual products being sold as a package. Based on what you indicated as not yourself using major loads, you would not need a 100 watt panel and the max that I could see you needing is perhaps 50 watts and more likely when you calculate your loads as I suggested above, conservatively, you probably will not need more than a 30-40 watt panel. The thing is, I would expect that a good quality 30 watt panel with controller is going to cost you more than $149 anyway. So, I can definitely see why you are drawn to this deal. I would check out reviews from others that have bought this system or at least search as best you can regarding the individual components before going that route. Larger (capacity) is not always better due to the increased size and the phenomenal price may not be better unless you can get some idea of the suitability/quality of the individual products.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 05/31/2016 04:33:21

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2016 : 13:35:41

I went with a rigid panel. They have the longest warranty over the flex panels. I also wanted it to be permanently mounted. I didn't want the hassle of plugging in panels and storing them every time I went sailing. Sooner or later one was going to get dropped/kicked and broken. Laying them on the seats...Well they just might be gone when you come back to the boat sometime. With a permanent install the panel is always charging even when you are using power unlike panels that you unplug when you come to the boat. For a permanent install on the C25 there are few options. Cabin top is going to get stepped on. Even flex panels won't last long if stepped on. It pretty much leaves only the stern rail. This will limit the size of your panel. You need to have clear access to the outboard and in my case definitely the swim ladder. In Larrys photo he has his mounted in front of the motor. I don't have a clue how he reaches over the rail to lift and tilt his motor with it there but maybe he can explain. I put my 10 watt panel in the middle(11.5X13"). I still have room to upgrade to a 20watt panel(10.75X20.5) without the panel encroaching on the engine or swim ladder. If I ever got another battery I would go for the 20watt panel but for now the 10 watt panel and engine charge circuit is doing fine.
I suppose you could build a sky high mount and put a larger panel 4ft above the rail but to me that looks like an old Dodge Daytona Charger

This is the panel Co. I used http://www.ramsond.com/solar-products/

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 05/31/2016 13:37:55

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2016 : 19:58:29

It is probably hard to envision how I raise the motor and tilt it from the photos but it is not an issue even if I have to remove the outboard from the bracket. The stern rail is fairly high and so access for lowering, raising and tilting the outboard is from just below the stern rail and so the panel does not pose an issue since it is higher than the stern rail. Before I installed the solar panel, I accessed the outboard from below the stern rail and so that is why I knew it was not an issue regarding accessibility. My only concern was that I wanted to raise the panel high enough so if I wanted to remove my outboard, I could do so without taking the panel down. But this was also a non-issue really because my panel has wing nuts on the support brackets and it is not all that hard to dismantle. Also, it is hard to believe but since the outboard was new in 2006, it has never been off the boat ! I have managed at one time or another to do all maintenance while the boat was in the water or out for a week getting the bottom painted. Here is another photo of the panel that shows a bit clearer that the outboard in the raised position is accessible from below the stern rail and is also tilted that way. Actually, I do not know how others access the outboard from above the stern rail especially to lower it. It would seem the normal way is to access it from below the stern rail. My outboard never drags in the water when in the raised/tilted position and so access from below the stern rail seems the way most would do it unless your bracket is mounted higher on the transom. The photo by the way was taken while I still had my old outboard in the Oct-Dec 2005 time period. Jan 2016 was when I replaced it with a new Honda.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 06/01/2016 03:23:05

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2016 : 09:41:53

In addition to what Larry shares above, if you go to www.marinehowto.com and click on the picture of the impeller, it will take you to a whole host of boat projects. There's an article on selecting and installing a small marine solar system.

Good luck!

1989 C25 TR/WK, #5822
1973 McVay Minuet 19
1975 Jester 12
1981 C25 SR/SK, #2428
1981 C22 SR/SK,
Tanzer 16
Sunfish

"There is nothing, absolutely nothing half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." Kenneth Grahame

Edited by - OJ on 06/01/2016 12:08:31

Akenumber
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2016 : 18:41:35

What we do is use one panel out of the trio pack at harbor freight. After about 5 years we are on our second panel. Just leave it on the side of the cabin while we are away and the two group 31 bats are charged when we get back out a week or two later. While on the boat for a weekend we have a 100 watt poly rigid I mount on the bow pulpit or I can mount on the stern. Poly puts out about 5 amps and the harbor freight put out 1.5 amps.

Ken
San Diego
84 C25 SR/FK 4116
The KRAKEN

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2016 : 07:23:07

While I was thinking about this thread down at my boat I noticed several boats with wind generators. As I recall they are in the $300-600 range and put out 20-40A. This is more than enough for a group 27 battery and can easily handle 4 group 31 batteries. Obviously a wind system only charges when the wind is above 8-10 knots but winds like that are common a few days a week in the northeast. Not sure about Florida or Texas ...
Has anybody got any experience with wind?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2016 : 03:29:17

I do not have personal experience with wind generators. I had also looked into this a bit to consider as an alternative to solar power. One of the issues is that most of the less expensive, smaller wind generators seem to require a bit more wind to keep them going (ie. 8 mph vs 6mph). You also have to have that specifically dockside, and generally where my boat is in the marina, the wind is somewhat muted until you just clear the marina. Still, my curiosity keeps me a bit interested and I sometimes search for what is commercially available without having to spend too much on a system. Amazon has a bunch that you can check the reviews/ratings. Of the ones I have reviewed, the ratings are not all that great and not consistent which to mean means that in the less expensive category, you may not be completely satisfied.

Meanwhile, solar panels have come down in cost and the benefit with solar panels is that there are no moving parts to contend with either with safety or maintenance/reliability. Rigid panels come with lengthy warranties which gives an indication of reliability and there are many that get excellent and consistent reviews/ratings.

I noticed that the reviews/ratings for wind generators are fairly good for the ones that are of very low wattage/amps being mainly sold for introductory science experiments for kids, etc. Then there are a couple of them that are a wind/solar combo portables but really do not put out much amps at all. When you get to the ones in the $150 - $300 complete range that put out decent amps, some of them need 8mph for generating power and then the reviews/ratings are not awe-inspiring for me to purchase one to see if they could really be helpful. But I am still curious and as to what others experience has been with the less expensive units.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Sailynn
Navigator

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USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2016 : 16:58:57

Larry thank you for your solar mounting pics. I want my husband to move our panel from forward of mast on deck to stern on the rail above the rudder. We just bought the boat and the existing panel works great, but I hate it's current location. The underside support is what I was perplexed with, but now I have the solution. Moving it will take some re-wiring but that will just take a little more nagging as now I know how it can be mounted.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2016 : 04:01:39

Lynn, Thanks for the comments. My website has the details of the panel install. I mention in the details that I bought the plate matl to make the supports from metalsdepot.com, however, I did that write-up a long time ago and so you would need to check that website out to see if they are still in business an doffer same product lines. When I first ordered the plate matl, I ordered both in stainless steel and aluminum. But I found the stainless steel just too hard to work with for bending it and for drilling holes. So, I made the supports out of the aluminum plate matl. The plastic/composite white block fasteners with wing nuts that I attached to the stern rail, I saw them in West marine and looked like something I could use with the support system for the panel. Going back to the plate matl, since aluminum can oxidize, I bought industrial grade Rustoleum primer and enamel from Home Depot and sprayed 2 coats primer and 3 coats enamel on all plate material before assembling the support system. Also, note that before I applied the coatings, the plate matl was all cut and prepared for install and I also beveled all edges and points off for safety/comfort reasons. The telescopic tube with holes to adjust length of the overall tube supporting outer end of the panel is also aluminum sort of aircraft type tubing. I got that idea from a recumbent bike I have that has a seatback that utilizes aircraft tubing and same adjustment method used for adjusting the slope/angle of the seatback. I bought the tube from metalsdepot.com as well - Sizes are on my details page.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 06/07/2016 04:30:34

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