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Added T track

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hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/05/2016 : 05:28:33

I have two feet of T track to add going forward. I need it to properly trim the new 110. It has been suggested that I bend it as I go forward a screw hole at a time. Have any of you added track forward and if so what method? I thought I would make a template to bend the track to then mount.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2016 : 07:36:36

What leads you to believe you need to add genoa track to be able to properly trim a 110?

This is a photo of a C25 with a well-trimmed 110, and the genoa car is set about 9" forward of the lifeline stanchion, well within the range of adjustability of the genoa car on the standard track.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2016 : 09:19:18

I agree, The factory T Track should accommodate a standard 110 unless your 110 has an extremely high or low cut clue maybe?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 12/05/2016 09:20:24

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2016 : 13:56:34

I agree on questioning the need, unless the 110 is an absolute deck-sweeper. But if you do need a 2' piece, why would you need to bend it? It seems to me the curve of your toe rail over 2' is almost imperceptable, and a straight 2' section would not be noticeable (maybe what--a 1/4" space at the middle? But I'm not looking at your boat. And I'm having a hard time imagining bending a piece that short, even a little. If you need to mate to the end of the current track, filing a very slight angle on the end of the extension would seem to do it.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2016 : 18:00:42

I have a deck sweeper 110 for my '89 model and I can trim it with no problems whether I have it all the way down on the fore-stay or up about 12-18" on a pendant.

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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2016 : 04:44:39

The sail came off a Beneteau and is a little less than 110 for my boat. I am guessing it is probably about 105. I cannot get the leach tight enough and allow a curve at the foot.
The sail is in very good condition so I plan to use it in heavy air.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2016 : 08:18:29

I think it might be much less than a 105. On my 87 if you extend the track 2 feet forward the combined tracks would now end opposite the upper shroud chain plate which is even with the mast or very close to it. If you had a car that far forward on even a 100% sail the clue of the sail would be even with the mast and upper shroud. Having a car there would put your sheet fully vertical from the car to the clue I would think.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 12/06/2016 08:19:49

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2016 : 10:15:01

First, I can't think of a reason why the foot of a 105% jib should ever be curved. Generally, the foot and leech should be equally taut.

Sails are designed so that they are most efficient within a certain wind speed range. A 105 is a sail that is designed for use in stronger winds. It's wind range probably starts at about 17 kts., and at that speed, the sail's shape should be fairly flat, like a blade. It's shape should remain approximately the same throughout it's wind speed range. As it nears the peak of it's wind speed range, the genoa cars might be moved aft a bit, to flatten it's foot a little more and depower the top of the sail a bit.

The general rule of sail trim is that genoa cars should be moved forward in lighter winds and aft in stronger winds, but that doesn't generally apply to a 105, because a 105 is designed to only be efficient in strong winds, so, it should always be used in, and trimmed for, strong winds. Because a 105 is cut flat, moving the car forward in light air doesn't power it up as it would with a 130 or 155. If the wind lightens, then the better choice would be to take the sail down and replace it with either a #1 (155%) or #2 (130%).

All that having been said, however, the genoa track on a 1989 C25 is inboard, unlike the previous models, which have their genoa track mounted on the gunwale, and that difference might explain why we're having difficulty visualizing your concern.

I'd have to experiment with your sail on your boat to figure out the best way to set the genoa cars and to lead your jib sheets, but I can suggest some alternatives that you could try.

What you need to do is find a way to route the jib sheets to the jib clew so that the jib can be trimmed correctly for sailing closehauled, without rubbing the sheet hard against the shrouds. As a practical matter, the 105% or smaller jib is only a good sail for sailing closehauled in strong winds. To sail a reach or downwind efficiently, you'll want to either change to a bigger jib or raise a chute.

If you look at the above photo, I think you could set the genoa car about 6" aft of the forward end of the track. Then you could route the jib sheet outside of the aft lower stay and inside of the upper shroud. I think that would allow you to trim the 105% jib correctly for closehauled sailing, without the sheet rubbing too hard on the standing rigging.

I know that, to those of us who are accustomed to boats with outboard genoa tracks, it sounds slightly crazy to route the jib sheets behind the upper shroud, but that's not at all uncommon for boats with inboard genoa tracks.

I crew on a CS 40, which has an inboard genoa track, and, when it is flying it's #3 jib, the jib sheet is routed through the narrow slot between the upper and lower shrouds.

My suggestion is that you try to find a route for the jib sheet between the standing rigging. I think that's the way the boat's designer probably contemplated that the small jib should be rigged.

The sheets would only be routed that way for a non-overlapping jib. They would be routed outboard the shrouds for the bigger jibs.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 12/06/2016 13:23:39

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2016 : 14:02:21

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

...All that having been said, however, the genoa track on a 1989 C25 is inboard, unlike the previous models, which have their genoa track mounted on the gunwale, and that difference might explain why we're having difficulty visualizing your concern.

But the 1988 still had the outboard tracks. 1989 was a whole new deck mold. Here's an '88:

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/06/2016 14:08:42

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2016 : 16:00:51

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

...All that having been said, however, the genoa track on a 1989 C25 is inboard, unlike the previous models, which have their genoa track mounted on the gunwale, and that difference might explain why we're having difficulty visualizing your concern.
But the 1988 still had the outboard tracks. 1989 was a whole new deck mold. Here's an '88:

Hmmm. Let's call that a senior moment.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2016 : 18:29:32

I didn't realize the '88 was that different from the '88.

How can you mount a track forward of that on the rail? Seems like it would be very difficult to get to the bolts on the inside.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2016 : 19:01:37

The bolts are above a teak trim strip over the inside of the hull-deck joint--not easy to get to. On mine, they appeared to be fasteners for the joint.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2016 : 19:09:48

Gary, I know they are on my boat. I was going to re-seal my tracks but nixed that when I found that most of the nuts on the inside were buried in fiberglass and the hull to deck joint compound.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2016 : 23:37:35

I wonder if you might consider a "twing" or a Barber Hauler" (a line and block on the sheet that pulls the sheet one way or the other) instead of installing a separate track?
Many small boats use them to adjust the sheets on small head-sails either fore/aft or to draw them inboard as needed. They have the advantage of being adjustable under sail.
I have seen many larger racers with inboard tracks but but it seems a major step for the C-25.

John Gisondi
Peregrine #4762

*

Edited by - Peregrine on 12/06/2016 23:58:02

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2016 : 05:47:36

quote:

I wonder if you might consider a "twing" or a Barber Hauler"

We did do that, among other things. In doing so we discovered that we could better trim the sail by moving the block further forward. Currently the leach will flutter with the block in its current position at the forward end of the track.

quote:
then the better choice would be to take the sail down and replace it with either a #1 (155%)

I have a new Ullman 150 that I have not flown yet. We did mount it on the furler and the fit is very good. It is marked and reinforced to adjust to 135 & 110.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

hewebb
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2017 : 05:48:08

I finally got the track mounted. I would not recommend that job and if I had it to do over again I would get a regular 110 sail. Turns out that the sail I bought is just short of coming to the mast by a couple of inches. I'm guessing it is about 95%. I have not tried it out yet. Also, I decided that I would need a additional track car to keep the sheet off the stanchions. They are ordered. Hopefully in the next few days I will get to test the system. Some times the great deal on a sail isn't worth it.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

hewebb
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2017 : 05:55:58

I finally got to sail with the new installation. All worked out well. I messed around with the track car locations for this small sail and things worked well and I was able to get a proper trim on the jib.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

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