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Replacement outboard...weird idea

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Sryth
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/19/2017 : 20:17:14

Found out that someone stole my outboard at the local marina; not sure when this happened, as she's been on the hard for a few years now...not much I can do about it at this point.

I was searching for a replacement outboard, when I remembered that I successfully used a 50lb thrust trolling motor hooked up to a homemade generator (a Honda GXV160 on a steel plate, driving a 100 amp alternator) to travel 5 miles up river (limping to the marina with damage from hurricane Sandy). The motor was pretty quiet, even loaded down with the ~50 amp trolling motor.

Anyone see any issue with hanging this generator contraption on the motor mount, and somehow mounting the business end of the trolling motor on the center-line just fore of the rudder? I could use the generator to keep the house batteries charged as well.

I'm pretty sure it'll work, just thinking maybe I'm overlooking something :)

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2017 : 04:06:51

permanently? It doesn't sound like your homemade generator is well protected from following seas. other than that, I like the idea of an electric saildrive. there is a company in europe that makes them.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2017 : 06:52:29

If you were always in calm waterways and never needed to count on your outboard to travel long distances because of no wind or had to return during suddenly windy, stormy conditions, then perhaps anything better than an oar or paddle will probably suffice.

However, many or at least I will encounter upset conditions from time to time (or be far from my marina in no wind conditions, going against a current) and it is those times/days during a full season that a dependable and decent horsepower outboard makes for stress free days.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2017 : 07:20:16

Geez, I have that motor on my lawnmower. Not to sound disrespectful but this idea sounds a little MacGyvery

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2017 : 07:41:40

quote:
Originally posted by Sryth

...and somehow mounting the business end of the trolling motor on the center-line just fore of the rudder?...

I have a long list of questions about what you mean by that--starting with (1) what and how do you envision "mounting", and (2) what about the skeg that's "on the center-line just fore of the rudder"?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2017 : 08:02:55

Marine engines usually disperse their exhaust underwater. Even so, when motoring downwind, especially in light air, a cloud of exhaust fumes can accumulate over the cockpit and follow the boat. The first time I got seasick in 30 years was after motoring downwind for 30 miles, breathing carbon monoxide fumes that hung over the cockpit. You'd think that, with the generator running in open air, the fumes would disperse harmlessly, but if you motor downwind at about the same speed as the windspeed, the CO will hang over the cockpit.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2017 : 09:38:55

quote:
Originally posted by OLarryR

If you were always in calm waterways and never needed to count on your outboard to travel long distances because of no wind or had to return during suddenly windy, stormy conditions, then perhaps anything better than an oar or paddle will probably suffice.

However, many or at least I will encounter upset conditions from time to time (or be far from my marina in no wind conditions, going against a current) and it is those times/days during a full season that a dependable and decent horsepower outboard makes for stress free days.

Yes I motored through a 40 MPH squall on the potomac. With my 9.9 honda, I made 2 knots into the wind.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2017 : 11:22:26

On the Potomac.....may have been one of the same days I did same thing with my 9.9Hp Honda. I recall one day was when these two small dark clouds came overhead. The next day, the Wash Post had a photo of two guys on a swinging scaffold high on the Washington Monument that were also caught off guard by the 2 small dark clouds - Photo captured them swinging out around 30 degrees away from the Monument. Both guys survived the 10-15 minute ordeal.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Sryth
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2017 : 12:16:40

Thank you all for the responses!

I was considering this for a permanent solution, though I'd make it in such a way that I can easily revert to a normal outboard.

As for rough seas, I'm never without my dinghy and outboard, and sail in protected waters. I'm not worried at all about getting back to the hook. They sell pretty beefy electric motors these days, but they're so pricey I might as well just buy a bigger boat :)

A cowl would go a long way to hiding the "MacGyver" look, as well as protect it from the weather/following seas (extremely unlikely, given my cruising location/habits).

I thought perhaps mounting it to the skeg might be a good idea (fabricate a bracket), but the more I consider it, the more I think it might be ok to simply mount it off to one side on the transom.

I hadn't considered the exhaust problem while running downwind. I wasn't overwhelmed by exhaust running open in the cockpit for a few hours, but I can see it becoming a problem in the conditions you describe. Perhaps running an exhaust hose to below the waterline would minimize the sound and fumes.

Having electricity without worrying about killing the batteries would be rather nice. Microwave, coffee maker, hot plate, 12v cooler, fans, depth sounder, stereo, laptop...ok, maybe I'm getting carried away :)

Looks like the generator part has been done before, and they seem to love it.
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/outside-13.html

Damien
s/v Schmetterling ('84 C25/fin/std)
Beacon, NY

Edited by - Sryth on 09/20/2017 14:17:32

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2017 : 19:32:19

If you can generate 100A at 12VDC, a hefty inverter (2000W) would be able to generate 10A at 120 VAC. This should be enough to run a smallish microwave oven. 1200W is a modest power source. If you think about most marina power supplies, you get 30A on a circuit.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2017 : 21:40:32

If you look at the efficiency of a gas engine, especially one not optimized for a narrow rpm range, the decreasing efficiency of an alternator as it heats up under load, and the efficiency of an electric motor or inverter, I think you will find it to be an expensive way to drive your boat and generate power. Alernator/electric drives are only fairly efficient with diesel engines operating under high load in vehicles that frequently accelerate/decellerate. An outboard driving at a stable rpm and letting speed vary is the optimal situation for a gas/diesel engine.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2017 : 21:42:27

I'm still a little puzzled about the installation--what's inside and what's outside... If you cut a hole in the bottom, "reverting to normal" won't exactly be "easy."

But I'm trying to picture a 4-stroke engine connected to an alternator and rectifier, etc., all covered in a home-made cowl and attached somehow to a bracket on the transom, wired to an electric drive attached to the hull (through a hole in the hull?), with controls where?... Why would that be better than a 4-stroke outboard on the same transom bracket--a completely self-contained package that lifts completely out of the water? It won't give you the outboard's advantage of directional thrust in reverse... And I wonder how marinized (weather-proof-plus) the generating system would be, and whether the trolling motor component is intended to be permanently submerged like a sail-drive.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/20/2017 21:44:20

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2017 : 04:22:37

quote:
Originally posted by Sryth

Looks like the generator part has been done before, and they seem to love it.
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/outside-13.html

very suprised that that was a macgregor 26S and not an x or m with all the modifications.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Sryth
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2017 : 09:40:45

If I had a 3HP diesel, I'd certainly use it. Even if the alternator were running at 50% of it's rated output, that's enough to run the motor. I don't spend much on gasoline, so even triple the consumption wouldn't upset me all that much. I lug the house batteries home to charge them; gas is lighter:) Even if it costs a few bucks more, having a ~1kva generator available seems to be worth the money.

As for the installation:
Engine/Alternator in a fiberglass box, sitting on a transom-mounted shelf (where the old outboard bracket was), with an exhaust hose running down transom into water
Electric Drive either clamped/bolted to the skeg, or installed on the transom

Drive control wires running up to the transom top; maybe onto the tiller
Heavy gauge wire running from the genny through the existing hole in the transom to the house batteries
Heavy gauge wire running down the transom to the drive

The only additional holes in the hull should be to mount the drive

Damien
s/v Schmetterling ('84 C25/fin/std)
Beacon, NY

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2017 : 10:23:03

For starters, That exhaust is not water cooled so your talking about a hot exhaust pipe running down the transom. Have you put any thought to what this will do to the resale of the boat? I know I would be walking away. A 10-15 watt solar panel would put an end to your dragging the batteries home to recharge them. Most engines have a charge circuit to charge the batterys while motoring. The solar panel tops them off and keeps them charged. My batteries haven't been off the boat in 3yrs. Generator is accomplished with a portable Honda EU 2000 if I was going somewhere for a few days.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 09/21/2017 10:34:04

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2017 : 12:00:43

So . . . just one persons opinion . . . . if the boat is on the hard for a few years, then it would appear you do not use her very often. I think I would look for a used Johnson 9.9hp, 2 stroke, 25 inch engine on Craigslist so you have a reliable, albeit older engine with the boat -- and they should be inexpensive. If you plan on putting her back in and actively using her again, then go with a new or used 25 inch shaft 4 stroke outboard. The electric contraption you have detailed sounds interesting, but if you are sailing on the Hudson (it shows you are near Beacon, NY) then you will need the thrust and reliability of a known entity on the transom.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2017 : 12:05:06

quote:
Originally posted by islander

For starters, That exhaust is not water cooled so your talking about a hot exhaust pipe running down the transom.

Good point! As a kid, I was driving a rowboat with a British Seagull outboard, and reached around the back of the outboard for some reason, mistakenly grabbing the exposed exhaust pipe. My hand immediately cooked onto the pipe like a hamburger on a pre-heated steel frying pan. One could say that incident is seared into my memory!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2017 : 12:05:14

I bought a Torqueedo and discovered that motors designed for dingy transoms do not work well on a motor mount behind a C25. We take for granted the geometry of the clamp and tilt systems of our outboard. Of course there are work arounds but I was not all that pleased with mine.

Frank Hopper

Sryth
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2017 : 14:07:08

Good point about the exhaust temperatures; perhaps an insulated hose would work, or standoffs. The charger on the old outboard was not very effective at keeping the batteries charged up, and certainly not enough to add power hungry devices. A 110V AC generator on a boat always seemed kinda dangerous to me for some reason.

I don't see how this could negatively affect the resale of the boat, as removing this stuff and bolting back on the motor mount is always an option. I'll certainly keep my eye out for a good deal on an outboard, but I figured I'd give this a crack first.

Damien
s/v Schmetterling ('84 C25/fin/std)
Beacon, NY

SKS
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2017 : 05:58:59

I'm just not understanding.
What's the benefit for this.
I admit, it seems clever, but fraught with difficulties.
I don't see any reward for this contraption, as opposed to installing a motor designed to do the job.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

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