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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

All Chain verses Chain + Line for Anchor

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Carl in LA
Captain

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USA
284 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/20/2017 : 18:01:24

Hi all:

I'm changing to a west marine plow anchor on a lewmar roller just now...

Thinking about going all 1/4 inch chain or chain plus line.

My anchoring conditions are sand/mud in as much as 50-feet.

So I'm thinking either 200-lf of 1/4-chain or 50-lf chain (size to be determined) plus 150-lf of 1/2 inch three strand rope.

I believe the pile of chain will weigh about 130-lbs.

The chain would be easy to draw up by hand and place in the anchor locker while the rope would require more careful coiling during recovery...

I have minimal anchoring experience and would appreciate your thoughts and opinions...

Best,

Carl

Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat

Edited by - Carl in LA on 10/20/2017 18:01:51

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2017 : 06:17:24

It's hard to tell from a picture, but that sounds like severe overkill. The anchor looks like it's about the size of my primary plow anchor on my 35' 13,000 lb boat, and I don't use that much chain.

Raising an anchor with 30' of chain and 3/8" line is a lot easier than raising an anchor with 130 lbs of chain and 1/2" line. 3/8" line is much easier to flake down than 1/2" line. Boats that use all chain rodes usually use power windlasses to raise their anchors.

West Advisor provides good recommendations and guidelines for anchoring choices. I suggest you study this link and plan your ground tackle based on it's standards. https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Selecting-An-Anchor-Rode

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2017 : 23:36:42

Carl,

I have to agree with Steve.
The C250 anchor locker is made for a 13-lbs Danforth.
Look inside the locker and you will see built-in notches about 1/2-wide and 2"-long.

Here's the link to the West Marine 13-lbs anchor package that I have and fits well.
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--traditional-anchor-rode-packages--P005_159_001_006?recordNum=1

It might help to understand your anchor needs.
How deep are you planning to anchor?
Most sailors anchor in less than 50-feet.

How long will you be anchored?
Same day, overnight, week-long, month-long?
Will you be onboard during the anchoring, or will you leave it unattended (for a month)?
Most sailors anchor overnight/weekend and stay onboard.

Where will you be anchoring?
It sounds like a weekend at Catalina island, at Two Harbors?

If you have different needs, then you might need a different anchor.
In most cases, the West Marine link would be the best and economical choice.

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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1511 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2017 : 15:21:15

There are two questions here, not one......

The all chain or rope issue is not related to the anchor/bow roller pictured.

A C25/C250 can carry an oversized anchor, as long as it is mounted on a roller or other mounting, not in the locker. Rope/chain doesn't matter. I would post photos of my C25 bow roller, but Photobucket is now retarded.

In my opinion, there is not much need for all chain, simply put, these boats are too light for that. About 20-25' of chain is all that is needed.

If the anchor will nest correctly in the roller and not rub/chafe other parts of the boat, then mount it.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Carl in LA
Captain

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USA
284 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2017 : 21:25:45

Sorry for the lapse between the post and now. Happily out of town on vacation and a few honey-doos got in the way:)

Ok... going with 50-feet of 1/4-inch chain backed by 250-feet of 1/2-inch three strand nylon rode. The notes here and research by googling "anchoring at Catalina" brought this conclusion.

The line and chain were sourced at The Coordinated Companies which is a local rigging supply. http://www.coordinatedcompanies.com/ I felt that the chain at $40 and the rope at $90 was quite affordable.

The bow roller in the picture is shortened by about three inches to fit fully in front of the anchor locker. The odd shaped pieces of stainless are reinforcing with the smaller piece going inside the bow cavity as a backing plate and the long piece is bolted to the backer plate and itself bolted through the side of the anchor locker to spread the load.

The little piece of paper is the pattern made to cut out the metal backing plate. The stainless was cut with a 4-1/2 angle grinder with a cut-off disc... sparks were a' flyin'.

The swivel may or may not be used.

The idea for the big cleate is that it is through-bolted on the aft end of the anchor locker with a large backer plate on the inside of the v-berth (just under the hatch). The cleate gives a place to meter and pay-out the line rather than holding all the feed with your hands... and a place to tie-off the rode with the anchor out.

More to follow on actually having all this work out.

Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat

Edited by - Carl in LA on 12/01/2017 21:52:22

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2017 : 11:17:47

Curmudgeon on... I (and some folks who know more about it than I) don't like that swivel. It is prone to breakage when the boat swings so the rode is pulling on the anchor from the side, because the swivel can't pivot sideways. At that point, the side-load causes the swivel pin to break or its flange to let go so it pulls apart. At a minimum, attach the swivel to the anchor with a shackle; next best, also to the chain with a shackle. Better yet, use an "eye-to-eye" swivel (two closed rings pinned together) attached with two shackles. That allows full articulation so the pull is always linear on the swivel. No swivel at all would be better than skipping those options. A broken swivel is a disaster starting to happen.

Curmudgeon out.

Edit: I found a pic of an eye-to-eye swivel with shackles:

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/02/2017 11:24:02

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2017 : 14:16:43

My current boat came with just such a swivel, and I removed it. So not only do I agree with you, but I "practice what I preach." If attached directly to the anchor, the swivel could also be subjected to a fair amount of side-load torque every time you pull it over the bow roller.

But thinking through this a bit, I think that one of the arguments for having a swivel is that, unlike chain, 3-strand twist rope tends to untwist when under strong tension. Given these facts, it would seem to me that attaching it between the chain and the rode could give all the benefits and avoid the pitfalls of attaching it directly to the anchor.

I've never tried this before, but throwing it out there for your consideration. I still don't like swivels, but if I were to attach one I'd consider this alternative arrangement.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Carl in LA
Captain

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USA
284 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2017 : 19:13:38

A little bit of progress today...

Roller is bolted down and rode is tied-off and chain connected.

No swivel in the system at this time. I'll get out and anchor letting it all out and depending on whether it twists on return - then decide about the swivel.

For reference - that is the 16.5-lbs Lewmar anchor tied to 50-ft of 1/4-in chain tied to 250-ft of three strand nylon. The roller is Lewmar also bolted in with two bolts. The roller is shortened by about three inches.

The clete is a big 12-inch version from Amazon. A bit off center to align with the roller.

Now the locker lid is another story - at this time it is butchered to clear the anchor shank when closed... will need a few more days to clean up the notch and finish so its not so ugly.

More to follow...

Best,

Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat

Edited by - Carl in LA on 12/13/2017 19:15:45

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2017 : 21:01:36

quote:
Originally posted by TakeFive

...But thinking through this a bit, I think that one of the arguments for having a swivel is that, unlike chain, 3-strand twist rope tends to untwist when under strong tension. Given these facts, it would seem to me that attaching it between the chain and the rode could give all the benefits and avoid the pitfalls of attaching it directly to the anchor.

Hmmmm... It seems to me if you don't want the rope segment of your rode to untwist, don't attach a swivel to it.

From my limited experience, I've come to understand that a swivel is useful in a permanent mooring where, over time tide or wind changes will rotate the boat around the mooring anchor many times, eventually causing the chain to turn into a ball that both shortens and weakens it. A few rotations overnight or even for a week on the hook with a mostly twisted nylon rode won't cause this problem. So for most of us, the anchor on our bow doesn't need a swivel.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2017 : 13:08:05

I personally don't use a swivel, I've anchored literally hundreds of times since early 70's and never found it necessary. Just my personal opinion. As for chain and/or line it depends a lot on where you sail and the bottom conditions, weather, tide, depth and personal comfort.

1998 250WK #331
CILCIA
Steve
Pensacola, FL

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2017 : 18:47:00

Looks good Carl, All I see missing is some anchor rode markers.

1997 250 TR WK (sold)
1984 O'Day 28 (sold)
1979 SISU 22
Bath, NC.

Carl in LA
Captain

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USA
284 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2017 : 19:38:00

All good... before coiling the rode into the locker I stretched it out in the parking lot... there I marked the white nylon every 25-feet with red magic marker.

Looking forward to stretching that line out in the water.

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Potter

Looks good Carl, All I see missing is some anchor rode markers.

Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat

Carl in LA
Captain

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USA
284 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 18:40:08

Here is the pic of the final installation... install pics are on Take Fives thread about modern anchors on Catalina 250's...

Best,

Catalina 250 - Pretty Good Boat

Edited by - Carl in LA on 12/26/2017 18:40:43

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