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 Rail leaks in to the head		  New Topic  Topic Locked
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vdotmatrix
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USA
139 Posts
Initially Posted - 11/19/2017 :  08:05:39  Show Profile
https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/Ns3w7TnCANwJupQYmDzskQ1YLXuXMZDMFiQRSgR7Tys

So, after a good rain last week we found a huge puddle in the head of our C250. Some of the fasteners under this rail were wet. So I assume thats where the water came from. I hope it is just some loose screws and so on.

It seems like this rail has screws outside and inside.....I have not investigated but will head over in a moment.

QUESTION: i will remove the rail scrape away old sealant.....and clean it up.

what should I use? 3M 4000 adheasive sealant or something else?


Thanks in advance.

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1297 Posts
Response Posted - 11/19/2017 :  09:34:24  Show Profile

Consider butyl tape...

an alkyl radical —C4H9, derived from butane: butyl acetate.
• short for butyl rubber. (Dictionary)
Henk & Johanna
"Floating", a few off your "barnacles".
"Someday Lady" '95 C250WB #151 ('03 - 2016)
"Sea ya" 30ft Bayliner (04-2018 - 09-2018)
"Mariah" '96 C250WB #191 (05-2019 - 15-05-2023)
"Lady J" '00 C250WK #499 (05-2021 - 09-2022)
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vdotmatrix
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USA
139 Posts
Response Posted - 11/19/2017 :  11:12:47  Show Profile
yeah I lknow what it is. I use it on our camper but after 2-3 years it gets hard and should be switched out....So is this what they typically use here? Thank you
quote:
Originally posted by zeil


Consider butyl tape...

an alkyl radical —C4H9, derived from butane: butyl acetate.
• short for butyl rubber. (Dictionary)
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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts
Response Posted - 11/19/2017 :  12:28:28  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by vdotmatrix

yeah I lknow what it is. I use it on our camper but after 2-3 years it gets hard and should be switched out....So is this what they typically use here? Thank you

That's what happens when you cheap out and buy the inferior stuff at RV stores. Spend a few extra dollars to do it right, and it will outlast your boat.

Not all butyl tapes are alike - there's a huge variety of polymer compositions, molecular weights, plasticizer additives, etc., all of which affect the critical balance of properties between stickiness, elongation, and temperature sensitivity. This guy has tested every offering under the sun and worked with a supplier to get just the right balance for marine applications:

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/butyl_tape

I learned this the hard way, since I bought the cheap stuff first before I discovered the right stuff to use, then had to redo everything I had done before. Just get his stuff and do it right the first time.

FYI, you might also need to hollow out any rotted wood and re-pot your holes with epoxy. There are lots of websites that show how to do this.
Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)
Edited by - TakeFive on 11/19/2017 13:57:14
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vdotmatrix
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USA
139 Posts
Response Posted - 11/19/2017 :  16:29:31  Show Profile
Thank you... no one is cheaping out on anything., i was just saying that i didnt need a chemical analysis of butyl tape; it is widely used. Besides, nothing is cheap on sailboats....i will look into butyl tapes... thanks again.
quote:
Originally posted by TakeFive

quote:
Originally posted by vdotmatrix

yeah I lknow what it is. I use it on our camper but after 2-3 years it gets hard and should be switched out....So is this what they typically use here? Thank you

That's what happens when you cheap out and buy the inferior stuff at RV stores. Spend a few extra dollars to do it right, and it will outlast your boat.

Not all butyl tapes are alike - there's a huge variety of polymer compositions, molecular weights, plasticizer additives, etc., all of which affect the critical balance of properties between stickiness, elongation, and temperature sensitivity. This guy has tested every offering under the sun and worked with a supplier to get just the right balance for marine applications:

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/butyl_tape

I learned this the hard way, since I bought the cheap stuff first before I discovered the right stuff to use, then had to redo everything I had done before. Just get his stuff and do it right the first time.

FYI, you might also need to hollow out any rotted wood and re-pot your holes with epoxy. There are lots of websites that show how to do this.
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts
Response Posted - 11/19/2017 :  20:33:14  Show Profile
3M 4000 (polyether) is good, as is Life Caulk (polysulfide). Both remain resilient for years, so are reliable gaskets for bedding hardware and tracks like yours, and make eventual re-bedding easier than with polyurethanes like 4200 and (ugh) 5200. Once set up, they won't slowly squeeze out like butyl tape can (or so I'm told by friends who have used it, which I have not). The bolts will maintain the pressure on the "gasket" and thereby the seal.

One suggestion when using a caulk/sealant with thru-bolted hardware: Lightly tighten the bolts/nuts until the caulk starts to squeeze out, and let the caulk cure (24+ hours); then tighten to compress the gasket by holding the bolts stationary from above while turning the nuts down below (generally a 2-person process). This ensures that the important seal around the bolt is not broken by the turning threads.

Again, I can't speak on butyl tape from experience--just for polysulfide from experience, and against polyurethane sealants like 3M 4200 and 5200, which should require licenses to use. (And the builder of my current boat should have that license revoked.)
Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
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vdotmatrix
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USA
139 Posts
Response Posted - 11/19/2017 :  21:04:54  Show Profile
WOW, thank you....I really need to get to this rail and share some images so you all can see hwat is up...I never had one of these leak...I have 2 C250 and a C25.

there is 4000, 4200, and 5200....and recently discovered the pitfalls of 5200.



quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

3M 4000 (polyether) is good, as is Life Caulk (polysulfide). Both remain resilient for years, so are reliable gaskets for bedding hardware and tracks like yours, and make eventual re-bedding easier than with polyurethanes like 4200 and (ugh) 5200. Once set up, they won't slowly squeeze out like butyl tape can (or so I'm told by friends who have used it, which I have not). The bolts will maintain the pressure on the "gasket" and thereby the seal.

One suggestion when using a caulk/sealant with thru-bolted hardware: Lightly tighten the bolts/nuts until the caulk starts to squeeze out, and let the caulk cure (24+ hours); then tighten to compress the gasket by holding the bolts stationary from above while turning the nuts down below (generally a 2-person process). This ensures that the important seal around the bolt is not broken by the turning threads.

Again, I can't speak on butyl tape from experience--just for polysulfide from experience, and against polyurethane sealants like 3M 4200 and 5200, which should require licenses to use. (And the builder of my current boat should have that license revoked.)
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts
Response Posted - 11/20/2017 :  16:36:18  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by vdotmatrix

...and recently discovered the pitfalls of 5200.
I have been reminded several times about that--most recently from its use by the builder of my $+!nkp*+, when I pulled up some gelcoat trying to remove the teak hand-rails. I maintain 5200 should be used for structural bonding (like keels and hull-deck joints), should require a license to buy and use, and that ANYBODY (builders or DPOs) who use it to bed deck hardware and such should LOSE their license--PERMANENTLY. WM should keep it under lock and key, for licensed purchasers only.
Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts
Response Posted - 11/20/2017 :  19:34:47  Show Profile
Good quality butyl tape will not slowly squeeze out over time (aside from when doing initial tightening, which should be done over several days). The cheap stuff does ooze out until it no longer seals properly. In fact, the butyl that I linked above has far superior elongation without breakage than any curing sealant. You want that elongation for any high strain applications like under stanchions, where the base plate is going to get pulled up a little whenever the stanchion does its job. A curing material loses its stickiness once it's cured, so if it ever separates from one of the surfaces, you'll have unstoppable capillary wicking of rainwater into your deck until it's rebedded. The good quality butyl stays sticky forever and will re-adhere in the unlikely event it becomes separated.

The only time you really need curing sealants is permanent bonding (5200), under the waterline (per ABYC standards), and areas that are exposed to fuel or harsh solvents. On a sailboat, almost nothing is exposed to fuel.

All of these things are demonstrated on the link I posted for Bed-It butyl tape.
Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)
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vdotmatrix
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USA
139 Posts
Response Posted - 11/20/2017 :  20:02:12  Show Profile
Before I get to the sealants and everything i wanted to know about butyl tapes and 3M adhesives and was afraid to ask.....Has anyone here ever removed this rail before? it has screws on the top and there are screws in the cieling under it...

any ideas?
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts
Response Posted - 11/20/2017 :  20:29:18  Show Profile
Not nuts and washers on the bolts down below? I'm mystified... But I'm an ex-C-25 guy, and I'm old. Things were done with thru-bolts, washers, and nuts back then.
Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
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vdotmatrix
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USA
139 Posts
Response Posted - 11/21/2017 :  01:40:27  Show Profile
there is a line of phillips head screws in the top of the ceiling in the head, and as you can see, screws on the rail.......I am lazy but what is the proper name for this thing?
quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Not nuts and washers on the bolts down below? I'm mystified... But I'm an ex-C-25 guy, and I'm old. Things were done with thru-bolts, washers, and nuts back then.
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TEM58
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USA
113 Posts
Response Posted - 11/21/2017 :  08:32:32  Show Profile
It’s actually the jib car track. It’s been a while, but as I recall the Phillips heads inside the cabin are barrel nuts that hold the bolts coming through the track.
Tim M
“Perfect Match II”
2003 C350 #35
Cruising FL
PO "Wine Down"
2000 C250 WK #453
PO "Perfect Match"
1983 C25 SR/SK #3932
Lake Belton
Belton, TX
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vdotmatrix
Navigator

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USA
139 Posts
Response Posted - 11/21/2017 :  08:44:50  Show Profile
Thank you....i am just afraid to jump in to this and thne get stuck for hours.....i am going in. #128584;
quote:
Originally posted by TEM58

It’s actually the jib car track. It’s been a while, but as I recall the Phillips heads inside the cabin are barrel nuts that hold the bolts coming through the track.
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vdotmatrix
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USA
139 Posts
Response Posted - 11/21/2017 :  22:18:25  Show Profile
THANK YOU SO MUCH...this is exactly what I saw and could only reach about 5 without help....

to do it right i think I will have to remove ALL screws and remove the rail. clean off the contact points, the screws and each barrel of adhesive. The butyl tape I think would not be good for this application because it is too thick.

A bead of 3M 4000 I think will seal that rail on the deck surface.....what a pain in the Arse.
quote:
Originally posted by TEM58

It’s actually the jib car track. It’s been a while, but as I recall the Phillips heads inside the cabin are barrel nuts that hold the bolts coming through the track.
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