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Keeping An Eye Out...

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/27/2018 : 09:17:41

What is unclear to me is, if the J boat skipper knew that from a distance they were on a collision course, he did nothing except 'wave and yell' once it was to late to take meaningful action...seems to me both captains are culpable...because this was seemingly preventable.
https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2018/october/boat-collision-in-the-chesapeake-bay.asp

Jerry

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2018 : 10:58:07

both usually are to blame. I read he also tried to contact them on the radio. had time for that, but not to luff up or bear off?

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2018 : 12:58:37

There is a legal doctrine called "last clear chance." Under this doctrine, a negligent plaintiff can nonetheless recover if he is able to show that the defendant had the last opportunity to avoid the accident.

I frequently see boats that are on a collision course with my boat, but that doesn't mean that I should alter course to avoid it. The mere fact that I saw another boat on a collision course with mine doesn't mean I was negligent in not altering course' or that I had the last clear chance to avoid it. Every case turns on it's unique set of facts. Perhaps the stand-on vessel was unable to alter course because of the proximity of another boat, shallow water or an obstruction. Perhaps the give-way vessel altered course so close that there wasn't time to avoid a collision.

Personally, if I can't establish eye contact with the other helmsman, I assume that he doesn't see me. If you see another boat coming at you, a sailboat can't hit the brakes or gun the engine to avoid it. You have two choices - turn right or turn left. That's why the rules give right of way to sailboats over power boats. We have fewer options.

We don't have paved highways with painted lines to guide us. Boats can be coming at us from every direction, and our only defense is to be watchful.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2018 : 08:30:50

The way I see it is that the commercial fishing boat is at fault. He was at speed and not engaged in fishing making him a power boat and should give way to a sailboat. The sailboat was sailing and has right of way over a power boat. Had the sailboat been motoring he then would be a motorboat and would become the give way vessel and would have been at falt. That being said, Never trust the other guy to follow rules or do the right thing. If everybody did these things would never happen.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 09/28/2018 08:36:01

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2018 : 12:39:28

The way the sails appear to be filled in that photo, it seems to me they were heeling to port at the time of the collision, not starboard as the skipper reported. But that's neither here nor there...

Rule 2 applies here: While the other rules establish a hierarchy of rights-of-way, Rule 2 says nobody can use that as an excuse for not doing whatever they can to avoid a collision. Both captains will probably be found at fault, with a larger percentage of fault (and liability) to the powerboat, whose captain may have been distracted by his passengers. The "stand-on" vessel is expected to maintain course and speed until it's apparent that it shouldn't.

Another possibility, with which I have experience from both sides of the equation, has to do with a characteristic of "collision courses"--that your and another boat are on collision courses if the bearing to the other boat as you watch it does not change as you move along. It's possible that the sailboat, from the point of view of the powerboat captain, was behind something like a windshield frame, a passenger, or something else, and because it was a collision course, it stayed there. A skipper, especially inside a pilot-house or with sails in the way, needs to move his head around to make sure he doesn't miss something that is obstructed from his view and not moving from behind the obstruction. If he sees something, he can use the obstruction (or anything else on his boat) to fairly quickly determine whether both vessels are on a collision course. It happens.

As Steve says, when in doubt, start by seeing whether the other skipper appears to be watching you. If you can't see the other skipper's face, that's a bad sign. And if you wait too long to react as required by Rule 2, the result could be the classic last-second "shall we dance" situation, followed by what's in that photo.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/29/2018 12:59:09

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2018 : 20:34:10

Trying to make eye contact with the skipper of a power boat traveling at high speed is not effective. Best to presume like Steve says.

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

Edited by - sethp001 on 09/29/2018 20:37:21

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2018 : 08:21:43

...as I said, especially if you can't see his face. Generally at a quarter mile or so, it's one or the other, and you have something like 30 seconds to adjust your plan.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2018 : 12:32:49

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

...as I said, especially if you can't see his face. Generally at a quarter mile or so, it's one or the other, and you have something like 30 seconds to adjust your plan.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I agree. I was just adding my two cents!

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2018 : 14:12:28

My 2 cents, worth what you paid. Im a bicyclist all my life raised actively avoiding traffic from the time of my first paper route ... Currently I am on one if the most heavily used waters around. Power and sailboat... and an incredible variation in size and type of boat, age and experience of captains and degree of sobriety.

I keep my head on a swivel, anytime I see a boat with anything resembling an intersecting course I "declare my intentions" and attempt to get the other boat to do the same.

Sometimes I cease forward motion and idle till they pass.

I pass behind almost every boat. Often I will turn completely away from my intended course. I assume they do not see me and they are drunk or ignorant. My rules of the road are survive. All else is academic.

Its truly an experience to be out on our lake, and I love it every time!

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2018 : 15:43:54

Here's another "rule" I've mentioned before (for sailors on big water): Large vessels (ships, ferries, super-yachts) can fool your eyes. Their size can make it hard to judge the speed at which they're closing on you. (The high-speed Block Island Ferry is even worse!) My equation "CB=CC" (Constant Bearing = Collision Course) still applies, but your eyes can deceive you at first. When I see any of these, I make sure its bearing is moving toward my stern fairly rapidly--if not, I change course as soon as I've figured that out. In an area where the ship might be changing course, then I'll have a quick chat with the bridge, even though I'm capable of escaping at 30 knots. "Container ship approaching Ledge Rock Light, this is the motor vessel Sarge at your 1 o'clock..." They generally appreciate it. And I scan channels 13 and 16 in case they call for me, but usually they're calling somebody else who isn't paying attention.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/30/2018 15:53:17

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2018 : 18:32:53

Just one point - a charter fishing boat technically yields to a sailboat. A commercial fishing vessel towing or working nets is constrained in maneuverability and a charterboat is not an exception to the sail/powerboat rule. That said, a swivel head and early, decisive action is the preferred action regardless of who is burdened.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2018 : 19:05:08

Yup--a boat with fishing lines in the water is NOT a "vessel engaged in fishing" in the rules. But in the final analysis, the rules turn out to be sorta like "social conventions"--those who understand them might follow them--those who don't, won't. Most boaters (including many sailors) on the water are in the second category. We should all act accordingly. And I agree--the move you decide to make should be decisively visible to the other skipper--not vague and gradual. Let him see your port (or starboard) side right away, or clearly see that you've changed course to cross behind him or let him pass. It's basic seamanship. He might not appreciate that, but that's not the objective.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/30/2018 19:15:10

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