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rudder skin cracking

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dalelargent
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USA
198 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/05/2018 : 15:48:05

Hi all,

I have an 89 C25 with a balanced rudder and am experiencing an issue.

The leading edge fiberglass skin has separated at the seam on the upper (dry) portion of the rudder...between the pintle brackets. I bet if I removed the brackets it would separate even more. By separating, I mean the seam on the leading edge of the rudder has opened-up and I can flex the seam open with my fingers on both sides.

It has also developed a 1.5" curved crack in the skin around the upper pintle on one side. None of this can be due to freezing, I believe, as it hasn't frozen around here yet.

I first noticed this while doing an early morning, slow speed motor back to the marina from an anchorage. I was sorta bored so spent some time examining components in the aft of the boat. While doing gentle course corrections, I saw the seam flex open and shut, no matter what way I turned. It almost looked like the entire upper portion of the rudder was slightly flexing, but I couldn't tell if that was an illusion due to the skin moving.

I removed the rudder and found no other evidence of issues or cracks or bulges. The lower half of the rudder seems perfect.

What's next? You should also know I have no fiberglassing experience or tools, but maybe its time to learn.

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

Sailynn
Navigator

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178 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2018 : 15:57:09

Do the people who sold you the balanced rudder have a warranty? You didnt say how old the rudder is or if you were the original purchaser.

To get the best advise on repairing it even if its not under warranty I would take pictures and call them to come up with a plan.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

dalelargent
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198 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2018 : 16:00:17

The rudder came with my boat upon purchase 7 years ago. I had assumed it is original equipment, but don't really know.

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

dalelargent
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198 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2018 : 16:39:43

I am also curious why there is a seam there to begin with?!? Why isn't that glassed over smooth and seamless?

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

Mark Maxwell
Captain

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USA
329 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2018 : 17:03:28

Contact Catalina Direct Technical service for some ideas... they have seen a lot of different issues. The rudders are built in two halves. I�ve seen rudders split from freezing. It�s repairable, however, since you don�t have any fiberglass experience you might want to have some help. Contact your local junior college (industrial skills) or even high school (if they still teach auto shop) and they may be an excellent source. An auto repair shop would be good but don�t let them use bondo. There are YouTube videos on rudder repair...not specific to Catalina but fiberglass is fiberglass....can you post some pictures?

Mark-
'Impulse...�
1978 C25 #533 SR/DIN/FIN ~_/)~
Bakersfield, CA.

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2018 : 07:31:29

quote:
The rudder came with my boat upon purchase 7 years ago. I had assumed it is original equipment, but don't really know.

An 89 came with the balanced rudder.

quote:
I am also curious why there is a seam there to begin with?!? Why isn't that glassed over smooth and seamless?

Probably cost and the extra steps involved to do it. Think about it. The rudder has lasted almost 30yrs without the seam covered.

That said, I had the same problem with the same balanced rudder. My fix was to remove the pintles, Prop the rudder up then spread the seam open enough to pour warmed West systems G/Flex down into the rudder. You need to warm the G/Flex so it becomes very runny. I used a microwave for @ 10 seconds to warm the G/Flex. This worked very well and it ran all the way down into the voids using a surprising amount of G/Flex. I then laid the rudder on its side and put a brick on top to add some pressure as it cured. Rudders are flexible so G/Flex is the perfect product to use because when it is cured it is not brittle and remains slightly flexible. The fix worked very well and is still solid. I will add that even though the seam is open above the waterline I would guess that water sill got in there and will need to be dried out before any attempt to re glue the skin to the foam core.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2018 : 09:00:43

Scott, your approach sounds logical and has the added benefit of working out well. I�d also agree the there could be quite a bit of water down inside the rudder since rain and seawater will find any opening. Drying out a wet rudder would take some time. I assume you let your rudder dry over the winter season in a warm, dry location?
After you filled the void with G/Flex, re-sealing the skin seems a little more complicated. Did you mix up epoxy and smear it under the skin first, then maybe strap or tape the skin down? Did any epoxy squeeze out?
Once the epoxy had cured, did you sand and smooth the surface?
I ask because I too have a balanced rudder on Passage and don�t have any issues yet, but there is a barely visible crack in the seam on mine.
I�m planning to try MarineTex to seal it this winter, but I�ll check out G/Flex if it gets any worse.
BTW, at the end of the season when the boat goes up on the hard, before I do anything else I take my rudder and my compass off the boat and bring them home.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 10/06/2018 09:12:56

dalelargent
Navigator

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198 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2018 : 10:04:29

I am thinking the G/Flex is what adheres the skin to the core, so no additional epoxy/adhesives needed. Is that correct, Islander?

Also, how much G/Flex do you think you used and what kind? I am unfamiliar with the product, so I went to WM online and found a vast line of products and sizes. (Hopefully I don't need the 50 gal drum at $8000!!! LOL!) I am wondering if the 650 is what I need.

I haven't pulled the skin back, but I don't think I have voids, per se. Just the opened seam, with the small crack in the glass on one side from flexing too much around the pintle bracket.

I am trying to imagine the lower portion of the seam getting enough adhesive in it. I mean that at some point down the rudder, the seam becomes secure, so I can only pull the seam open so far: more at the top and a decreasing angle toward the middle of the rudder until there is no gap. Perhaps I could angle the rudder some while pouring in that area hoping it will run down and in?

I also store the rudder inside all winter. Sails, cushions, pillows, electronics and tiller, too.

Thanks for the continued help! I am feeling less grumpy about this situation. :)

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

dalelargent
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198 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2018 : 10:06:34

BTW, I have a friend with a 1988 C25 which is on the hard. He offered me his rudder to use for the last few weeks of the season.

What are the odds the pintles will match up? Will my tiller likely match up as well?

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2018 : 10:18:38

quote:
Drying out a wet rudder would take some time. I assume you let your rudder dry over the winter season in a warm, dry location?

I would say yes if It appears wet inside but in my case the delamination was caused by my pintle breaking with a loud bang and a large amount of shock sent through the rudder. Felt like someone hit the tiller with a sledge hammer. When replacing the pintle that is when I noticed the skin had delanminated so in my case the opening wasn't there long enough for it to get wet inside.

quote:
After you filled the void with G/Flex, re-sealing the skin seems a little more complicated. Did you mix up epoxy and smear it under the skin first, then maybe strap or tape the skin down? Did any epoxy squeeze out?

No need to smear, The G/Flex when heated ran down into the rudder like water. I only opened the seam about an inch and I think I used some toothpicks to hold it open. It wants to naturally spring back closed. I spread the seam open enough to have enough room to pour the G/Flex in. Then I removed the toothpicks and the opening self closes. I didn't use any clamps but I guess you could. I just laid it on its side and put a brick or two on it. Doing this squeezed the G/Flex all around in the void and I just wiped the seam with acetone to get any that was oozing out.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

islander
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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2018 : 10:44:54

[quoteI am thinking the G/Flex is what adheres the skin to the core, so no additional epoxy/adhesives needed. Is that correct,][/quote]
Yep, Probably better that what ever they used if anything. They might have just relied on the wet foam expanding to stick to the fiberglass shell. I used a G/flex repair kit that has 2- 4oz bottles in it and it was plenty enough. The 650 is what you want.https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=8694

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 10/06/2018 11:19:08

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2018 : 11:29:48

quote:
I am trying to imagine the lower portion of the seam getting enough adhesive in it. I mean that at some point down the rudder, the seam becomes secure, so I can only pull the seam open so far: more at the top and a decreasing angle toward the middle of the rudder until there is no gap. Perhaps I could angle the rudder some while pouring in that area hoping it will run down and in?

Every situation is different. Hard to tell if you can utilize my fix exactly in your situation from this end of a computer so maybe you can put your own twist to it.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2018 : 19:34:09

Did somebody by chance paint the rudder above the waterline? When I got mine, it came with a warning not to let the painted part be exposed to sun for long periods, since this would generate heat that would cause the foam core to expand and possibly crack the shell. Just a thought...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

dalelargent
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2018 : 21:49:30

Good question, but it is only painted below the water line. And it has been in cool mountain lake water.

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

Edited by - dalelargent on 10/06/2018 21:50:53

redeye
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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2018 : 11:08:39

I did the same as islander without warming the G-flex and it has held for about 5 years . Warming it would have been even better.

left the rudder out in the sun to dry and then leveled the cracked area out and poured the gflex in.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 10/07/2018 11:12:09

dalelargent
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2019 : 19:28:05

Hi all,

I let my rudder dry-out since November and today we "glued" the skin back on with the G-Flex 650. It is curing as I write. I believe it went very well....I will pull some clamps tomorrow and find out :)

I followed Islander's technique. It was quite easy.

I will replace the pintles tomorrow. What do you recommend I seal them with? I love Butyl tape, but don't think I can keep it in place while sliding the pintle over the edge of the rudder. Perhaps I could if I spread the pintles some.

Thoughts?

Dale

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

Edited by - dalelargent on 03/02/2019 19:30:45

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2019 : 05:33:03

Dale, Are your pintles and gudgeons the newer type that have the plastic bushing inserted in the gudgeon? If they are the pintles need to be put back on in the exact position that they came off or your going to have a alignment problem between the two when you go to hang the rudder. That said I used 4200. My rudder had only foam and the fiberglass skin where the bolt holes were. No wood so you have to be careful when you tighten them up. Just enough that you don't start crushing the skin and foam. Yes you can spread the pintles slightly to ease the installation. To avoid an alignment problem I put the pintles into the gudgeon on the boat then put the rudder on a floor jack and moved the rudder into position in the pintles then tightened the bolts.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 03/03/2019 06:18:02

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 03/04/2019 : 04:45:26

I have the same basic rudder on my '89. I do not recall specific details except that it also has what looks like a seam on the leading upper half edge but it is solid epoxy coated within and not separated or with what appears as a deficiency. Mine just seems to be the way it was constructed. It is the original rudder and the boat has been in the water all year round for many, many years. So, the rudder is �.30 years old.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

dalelargent
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198 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2019 : 11:16:00

The repair came out great! I am so excited about that! The heated G-FLEX really was easy to work with and did just what Islander reported.

I am now ready to re-install the pintles.

I read from Islander that 4200 is the right stuff. I am not near a marine store, but found 3M 4000 at my local Ace. Is this a suitable substitute for the 4200?

Secondly, Islander, I read your advice about lining up the pintles and gudgeons. My challenge is that the boat is on the hard, with a mast support mounted in the gudgeons. It has also been 15 degrees outside lately.

I had assumed that, since I am re-using the same pintles and did not re-locate bolt holes, that I would be able to simply re-install the pintles without alignment troubles. I even know which is the upper and lower to mount them in their original places. Is this not a good idea? I don't think there are bushings in the gudgeons. Seems to just be steel bracket with a "washer" shaped piece welded to the bottom for strength.

I would love to wrap this project up, but if I need to wait for warm weather and remove the mast support, I can do that...

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2019 : 15:02:05

As to the 3M 4000UV here is what 3M says
Thank you for contacting 3M, the Innovation Company.

It is difficult to tell the difference between the two because our 3M Marine Adhesive Sealant 4000 UV can do basically everything the 4200 can and more and do it better (stronger, last longer, UV inhibiting properties to keep it from yellowing). Our 4000 UV may completely replace our 4200 soon, but for now, if you are trying to decide between the two of them, we'd suggest our 4000 UV.

With that said I would say you can use it but I stress that I have never used it.

As to the gudgeons, If they look like the first photo below they are the old style without the bushings so the alignment is not that critical and you could probably go ahead and install them if you think you can get them back in the same spot but you may end up with the distance between the two off a little resulting in one of them bottoming out in the gudgeon before the other one. My holes were very sloppy and the pintles could be moved around quite a lot.

This is the new style with the bushing

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 03/05/2019 15:06:26

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2019 : 15:05:39

If you drill the holes to a larger diameter, fill with thickened epoxy, and then re-drill the diameter for the bolts, you won't need to worry about sealing. And at the same time, you will have provided protection from compression from the pintles and bolts. That's what I did with my replacement rudder--the foam-cored, balanced model Catalina put on your vintage. You can draw cross-hairs for the locations of the original holes to get the exact placement on the re-drill. I drilled in from both sides so the alignment turned out right. (I'm not sure how G-flex is for drilling--you might want to test a sample. This might call for a harder resin.)

If you still want to seal it, I would chamfer the holes on both sides by hand-turning a large-diameter drill bit, to accommodate a ring of sealant around the bolt.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/05/2019 15:13:50

islander
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Response Posted - 03/06/2019 : 04:19:23

I suggest that you dry fit the pintles on the rudder. Put the bolts in but don't fully tighten them. Push up and down on the pintle pins then push the pintles in and out on the rudder. If there is a lot of movement then you would just guessing as to where they are supposed to be. Mine had a lot of play.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 03/06/2019 04:23:06

dalelargent
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Response Posted - 03/07/2019 : 14:37:35

Thanks for the continued support, captains :)

I do indeed have the older gudgeon style. And, per Islander's recommendation, I dry fit the pintles/bolts and found the lower one to have significant play.

Therefore, I will wait for spring to mount the rudder and pintles directly on the boat.

Since I am done for now, does that mean I can scratch "repair rudder" off my list?

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

islander
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Response Posted - 03/07/2019 : 16:43:58

Might be pushing it but what the he!!

One more thing, when you do mount the rudder to the boat put the tiller on the rudder before you tighten the bolts then check the height of the rudder. If it's to low the tiller will rub on the top of the transom. If it's to high the forward kicked out part of the rudder if you have a balanced one might rub on the little skeg on the hull.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 03/07/2019 : 16:52:12

quote:
Originally posted by dalelargent

BTW, I have a friend with a 1988 C25 which is on the hard. He offered me his rudder to use for the last few weeks of the season.

What are the odds the pintles will match up? Will my tiller likely match up as well?

After my original rudder began to deteriorate, I bought a newer, used rudder, and the pintles and gudgeons fit perfectly. I think your friend's rudder should fit.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

dalelargent
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198 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2019 : 18:38:28

Thanks again, Islander, for the great tips. I will add the tiller to the set-up when I install pintles in the spring. It is a balanced rudder, so the skeg issue is possible.

FWIW, I was not able to use my friend's rudder last fall. I got clever and took some measurements. Sure enough, even though his boat was manufactured pretty close to mine, the pintles were in very different locations. Oh well.

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

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