Association Forum - Cracked rudder

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Cracked rudder

New Topic

Reply to Topic

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2020 : 15:44:11

Yep Dave, If you notice the photo was taken yesterday and that's my basement that it's in. Stays there next to the warm burner all winter and I will hang it on the boat just before they drop her in on the 11th. Actually since my boat is facing south and is surrounded by other boats on each side I could probably hang it anytime since the back of the boat is fully in the shade.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 04/28/2020 15:52:24

Allmanjoy
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2020 : 07:55:41

Ok , yeah sorry about the format, trying to get use to this format. That was the one area I was concerned with as well. I�ll remove the pintle and take a new photo. Stay tune.

Jay C 1985 C25 SR/SK

Allmanjoy
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2020 : 08:17:32

Jay C 1985 C25 SR/SK

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2020 : 10:28:59

That crack appears to extend through both bolt holes. The big question is it just in the fiberglass shell or is it also through the wood. The shell can be easily cracked by over tightening the pintle bolts and is more cosmetic. If the crack is through the wood it's definitely more serious.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Allmanjoy
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2020 : 11:39:49

It's definitely a surface crack, so it's something I'm definitely going to have to keep an eye on.

Jay C 1985 C25 SR/SK

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2020 : 13:47:20

Now I would take some coat-hanger (or similar) wire and check the condition of the wood around the bolt holes. If it's hard and solid, that's a good sign. If you can carve it out with the wire, that's obviously not good. We're looking at the primary stress point on the rudder, and the place where they almost always break--right through the bolt holes and all the way to the aft edge--BANG, and instantly have no steering. More than a few folks here have described it.

A "surface crack" in fiberglass is just through the thin gelcoat--often called a spider crack. Any further into the laminate, and it's structural--especially there. From here, that looks like more than the gelcoat. I can't imagine tightening the forward bolt on the pintle enough to crack the fiberglass there--the aft bolt, yes, in which case the crack would be at that end, along the edge of the metal, and it would be structural. I remember trying to spread those pintles just a little for my new rudder, and they're really strong! Either way, that's the worst place to crack the shell.

Sorry, but so far I don't like what I see.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/29/2020 14:14:20

Allmanjoy
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2020 : 19:49:07

No worries, I appreciate a straight response. I took my awl and pressed inside the bolt holes and it was solid. I also replaced the galvanized bolts with stainless. The crack from the leading edge to the lower pintle bolt hole is definitely cracked through the layer of fiberglass. The crack between the two bolt wholes is easy to see in the photos but with the naked eye seems to be just at the surface. This rudder is definitely on the R&R list, but with the new engine and staying close to port I feel confident I can get home with a failed rudder.

Jay C 1985 C25 SR/SK

Allmanjoy
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2020 : 20:22:10

So in looking at the photos, the opposite side of the lower pintle you can see the crack moving from leading edge to the first bolt hole. More troublesome is that it appears to be cracked inside the bolt hole consistent with the exterior crack. So it looks like the rudder just went to the top of the li$t. #128577;

So balanced or traditional?

Jay C 1985 C25 SR/SK

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2020 : 22:19:20

Balanced is like power steering. You can have some weather helm (a little of which I prefer) and still steer with one finger instead of constantly pulling on the tiller.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2020 : 04:47:56

Definitely balanced.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Allmanjoy
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2020 : 06:49:11

Thats what I figured. How about opinions on CDs rudder choices:

1). C-25 Standard Rudder w/ Pintles & Shims Improved Fiberglass
� Overall length: 65-1/2"
� Chord length: 12", 14", 17"
� Thickness: 2"
� Pintle Diameter: 1/2"

2).C-25 Deep Rudder w/ Pintles & Shims Improved Fiberglass
� Overall length: 78"
� Chord length: 14"
� Thickness: 1-3/4"
� Pintle Diameter: 1/2"

3)C-25 Blue Water Rudder HDPE, w/ Pintles & Shims
� Height: 80"
� Chord Length: 15-1/2"
� Thickness: 2"

I'm leaning toward choice 2. I like the longer rudder but the blue water is less to ship since it doesn't need a plywood crate, which adds $50 to the cost.

Jay C 1985 C25 SR/SK

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2020 : 07:49:21

I experimented with my C25 TR/FK by sailing it grossly overpowered until it pulled the rudder out of the water and wallowed on it's side until I released the main sheet to let her stand up. I don't think an extra foot of length would have made a significant difference in the behavior of the boat in that situation. When the boat was heeling that far, the rudder lifted out of the water. The very end of a foot-longer rudder might have stayed in the water until the boat heeled another degree or two, but it still wouldn't have been enough to steer the boat. At that point, the boat was no longer floating on it's bottom. It was floating on it's side, with the water within a couple inches of pouring over the gunwale into the cockpit. So, realistically, under what circumstances do you expect that the extra long rudder would be helpful?

Moreover, on a swing keel boat, the length of the rudder dictates the depth of the water you need to float the boat. If you raise the keel to go gunkholing, or to beach the boat, you'll need an extra foot of water depth to avoid dragging your rudder on the bottom. Keels are more robustly made than rudders. If you drag the rudder, there's a much higher probability that you'll damage the rudder in a grounding.

If you trailer launch and retrieve the boat at a shallow ramp, a deeper rudder might be more problematic, because of increased difficulty in attaching the longer rudder while hanging over the transom after launch.

Overall, I don't see much to be gained by a longer rudder on a swing keel boat, but I see some drawbacks.

Of the three choices, I'd go with #1. It's thicker and thus stronger, and less costly. A C25 is not a bluewater boat and should never need a bluewater rudder.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/30/2020 07:56:12

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1519 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2020 : 08:02:03

Jay,

Good pictures! The cracks along the seams and near the pintle look just like my original, wood-core rudder that snapped off in a 25 knot gale.

After I read about rudder issues here on the Forum, I learned how to do fiberglass work. The West System has excellent info on many boat repairs with fiberglass. But I ignored the Git-Rot step. I believed that significant strengthening of the outside shell around both pintle attachment points would fix the problem. It didn't. Water and ice had got in and weakened the whole core of my 25 year old rudder.

You should plan on emergency measures needed if your rudder snapped off in high winds one day. Steering straight without a rudder is impossible under power, but the boat can move forward in curves. Sailing can't be done. Anchoring and calling/radioing for BoatUS or another towing service would be nice in an emergency.

On the C-250 Forum Henk is currently making a new backup rudder out of oak boards. He and his Admiral tend to take long cruises and are sometimes in coastal waters with no anchoring.

I've sailed with a number of C-25-250-Capri Association members and learned that "local knowledge" of the sailing venue is critically important, like knowing your boat and the local weather!

The surprisingly helpful members of this Forum can provide you with decades of boating and sailing experience so that you can avoid all the mistakes we have made. (I still miss Sven and his tales of anchoring woe on the ICW!)

My advice - Listen to Steve and also use some of that GitRot stuff as a temporary fix.

JohnP
1978 C25 SR/FK "Gypsy"
Mill Creek off the Magothy River, Chesapeake Bay
Port Captain, northern Chesapeake Bay

Allmanjoy
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2020 : 08:15:45

Steve, Those are all good points and as always thank you for the quick response. My C25 has an alarm that activates if I heel more than 10 degrees, and if I go further than that alarm will smack me on the back of the head and not talk to me for at least the rest of the sail. So my wife would agree that having the longer rudder would be of little use. I also don't like the idea of further limiting the draft of the boat with the rudder.

John thanks for the affirmation on my decision to get the new rudder.

Jay C 1985 C25 SR/SK

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2020 : 15:27:41

I put what I assume was an earlier version (foam cored) of option #1 on our C-25 FK, and while we frequently heeled past 10 deg., occasionally around 20, I don't recall ever lifting the rudder out and losing steerage ("rounding up"). It looks like that rudder has been improved to replace the foam with an internal grid.

I've sailed other, generally beamier boats that would round up when heeling--a lot. The C-25 is on the slender side for a cruiser that length. As Steve points out, the farther over she goes, even if the rudder is still partly in the water, it's acting more like a flap on an airplane wing than the rudder on the tail. So length isn't helping.

While you're at it, check the laminations of your tiller around its bolt holes (under the side plates) for signs of separation. A little unthickened epoxy and a clamp can resolve it. And don't ever sit on the tiller--that causes something epoxy can't cure. I know--a friend lost his balance and sat on mine...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/01/2020 21:28:21

Allmanjoy
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2020 : 12:34:47

The tiller did have some delamination so I glued and clamped it. Then sanded it down and added three coats of varnish so the tiller looks great. I went ahead a got the CD balanced standard rudder and should receive it in about two weeks.

Jay C 1985 C25 SR/SK

smconinc
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
11 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2020 : 12:26:10

I'm trying to post a picture of my cracked rudder so I can get opinions. I hope this works!

Scott Michaels 79' C25 SR/SK

smconinc
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
11 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2020 : 12:35:40

back view of rudder

Scott Michaels 79' C25 SR/SK

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2020 : 12:40:48

If that was my rudder I wouldn't trust it even with a repair attempt. My opinion is its time for a new one.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

smconinc
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
11 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2020 : 16:12:21

I think I agree with you Islander. I'm looking for one now

Scott Michaels 79' C25 SR/SK

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2020 : 16:42:17

I'd repair it and use it until you get a new one, and then I'd keep it in your garage or basement in case the new one ever breaks. If the vendor doesn't have one in stock, you might have to wait for him to build it. If it ever breaks, it's not like an airplane that will fall 5000 feet and crash in flames. You might just have to limp back to your marina under outboard power.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Reply to Topic

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.