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 Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums
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 Tacking the Genoa
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Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
399 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/06/2017 :  11:34:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello Everyone,

I recently bought a new 135% genny and have sailed with it twice now. My sheets are attached with bowlines, no shackles. Do any of you seem to have trouble with the bitter ends of the bowline wanting to hang up on the forward shrouds when tacking ? So far, its always come free without the need for me to go forward to free it but it is annoying and I worry about possible sail damage. I have seen the pvc shroud roller kits from CD and WM but they look like they will be too short for my boat. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks again. BTW, its sure nice looking up at 2 nice new sails not to mention the sailing improvements.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1450 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2017 :  11:56:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If the 135 gets hung up on the knots at the clew, you might want to delay in releasing the working jib sheet for a few seconds and fill the backwinded genoa somewhat before releasing the sheet. That would give the sailcloth some momentum in moving across the bow and be less likely to catch on the knot. Even with my 110 I like to backwind the jib a bit to make sure it moves smoothly across during a tacking procedure.

If you have already been doing that, then perhaps switching to a smaller knot would do the trick.

JohnP
1978 C25 SR/FK "Gypsy"
Mill Creek off the Magothy River, Chesapeake Bay
Port Captain, northern Chesapeake Bay
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BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
31 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2017 :  12:04:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Use a constrictor hitch.
It's basically a clove hitch with a hidden part that locks it.
Additionnaly adding PVC (I think 1") pipes on your forward shrouds will make a huge difference.
I have done that on mine and it works fantastic and inexpensive.

1979 C25 #1389
"Adalynne"
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

Edited by - BKPC25 on 12/06/2017 13:14:44
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3002 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2017 :  12:35:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The PVC rollers are easily made and do help. 1" pipe, Two caps and 1 nylon washer for each. You can make them any length you like. I think they also provide better chafe protection for your sail vs the SS wire.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
4973 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2017 :  12:48:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The problem is caused by the clew snagging on the shroud when you tack. The solution is to prevent that from happening.

It happens more often with bigger, more overlapping sails. When singlehanding my boat and not racing, I will often use a smaller jib, such as 110% or less. IMO, even in light air, you can sail the boat better with a smaller easier-to-handle jib. Put another way, you lose more by having to struggle with the snagging clew than you lose by changing down to a slightly smaller sail. If your jib is on a furler, try furling it a bit when singlehanding in light air.

It seldom happens in moderate or stronger winds because the wind lifts the sail away from the shroud when the boat tacks.

It happens most often in light air, because the wind is so light that it can't lift the sailcloth away from the shroud. If you have crew, there are three good techniques you can use. First, have a crew member go to the foredeck and walk the jib around the shrouds each time you tack. Secondly, move your weight and your crew weight to the new leeward side of the boat each time you tack. That causes the boat to heel to leeward. The top of the mast moves to leeward. Gravity causes the jib to hang far enough to leeward so that the clew clears the shroud. Finally, watch the clew of the jib while you're tacking it. As the boat rolls over small wavelets, the clew will sway back and forth. Don't pull on the jib sheet when the clew is against the shroud. Wait until it swings away from the shroud, and then pull on the sheet.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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odonnellryanc
1st Mate

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36 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2017 :  16:04:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I use one long sheet with a cow hitch. Works super, but would require you to buy a new line when you might not need one!

However, best way for me to prevent fouling on anything -- midship cleats, shrouds, blocks -- has been to practice how I go through the tack. Tack slowly, you'll actually go faster, and I try to not bring the boat completely out of irons until the sheet is ready to be set. Absolutely don't release the sheet too early into the tack. Again, I found that tacking slow has helped me get a good feel for it!
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Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
399 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2017 :  16:34:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Back Again,

And thanks again guys. Always a learning lesson for me here. Steve is right, I've been tacking in very light airs. And John is also right. I believe I have been releasing the working sheet too soon, not allowing it to back wind first. And I will look into building my own pvc rollers for the front shrouds. Then I can make them any length I need. Do you think it may help if I apply some rigging tape to the line right at the bitter end of the knot to secure it to the sheet thereby removing the snag spot...? Or would the tape even stick to line ? Thanks again everyone.

Blade


C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
7597 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2017 :  21:31:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rigging tape might hold for a while... Whipping twine is the more lasting solution. You could even remove an inch or so of the double-braid core from the bitter end, to make a smoother taper under the tape or twine.

I found that a cow hitch (which is for a single, continuous line for both sheets) can present an obstacle during a tack--the outer loop of the hitch is perpendicular to the sheets and parallel to the shroud. Back-winding tended to catch it--getting the clew past the shroud while the sail is luffing tended to avoid that. I also found that after a season of use, the cow hitch could be almost impossible to break loose. But that's what I used.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
287 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2017 :  23:09:30  Show Profile  Visit Lee Panza's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Unless you're using high-modulus rope for your sheets it doesn't take much time or skill to eye-splice the ends, leaving no tails to snag on anything. Some people use a soft shackle to bend them to the clew; I use a small SS shackle that's almost fully surrounded by the sheets and the sail so it isn't the hazard that a larger shackle could be when the clew is whipping around.


The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)
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Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
399 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2017 :  00:11:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Again Everyone,

I had not considered whipping twine and I don't know why. I'm sure that would be a better solution than the rigging tape. I do like the idea of the eye splice. Just need to learn how to do it. Also, I didn't buy the current sheets on my boat so about all I know about them is that they are 3/8". Whether they are high modulus or not I don't have a clue. As far as eye splices go, are they known to be dependable as long as you make the splice long enough ? And would it be worth it to have it professionally done and have new sheets as well at the same time ? I truly appreciate the education I get here. Thanks again.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.
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DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
663 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2017 :  05:31:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by odonnellryanc

I use one long sheet with a cow hitch. Works super, but would require you to buy a new line when you might not need one!

However, best way for me to prevent fouling on anything -- midship cleats, shrouds, blocks -- has been to practice how I go through the tack. Tack slowly, you'll actually go faster, and I try to not bring the boat completely out of irons until the sheet is ready to be set. Absolutely don't release the sheet too early into the tack. Again, I found that tacking slow has helped me get a good feel for it!




I do this also. If I was ocean sailing I would knot , but it works great for me and has to be the smallest possible configuration to avoid snags.


Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053
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Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
287 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2017 :  07:46:22  Show Profile  Visit Lee Panza's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bladeswell

...I do like the idea of the eye splice. Just need to learn how to do it...




The basic eye splice is a useful skill to acquire. The most common types of rope, which you probably inherited when you bought the boat unless the PO was a dedicated racer, is what Samson (at least) calls Class 1 double braid, and there are plenty of vids on YouToob about how to do it. Samson publishes a full range of splicing instructions as PDFs (that you can print and take down to the boat) here :

http://www.samsonrope.com/Pages/Splice_Instructions.aspx

it's easy once you decipher the instructions (it can be confusing, at first, to lay out the entry and exit points, but once you understand what's going on it becomes a lot more intuitive and you won't need to keep re-reading the instructions).

There have been a number of threads and informative postings on this forum (I'm sure you've become familiar with searching the archives as you've been around here awhile now) about the size and the type of rope to use for the sheets, but basically the 3/8" you have is a good size to work with and almost certainly easy material to splice.

The single, long sheet with a cow hitch in the middle is great for leaving on a furler indefinitely, but it's not so great for hank-ons where you're probably going to switch headsails as conditions change. Another advantage of individual sheets attached to the clew is that you can get them in different colors so you can sort out the mess in the cockpit when you haven't had time between tacks to keep the two ends separate; I use green and red on the same sides as my bow light to distinguish them.


The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)
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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4437 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2017 :  10:10:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On our C25 we used a single line with a cow hitch and removed the line when we took down and folded the sail, and do the same with our C22 genoa, hank-on, no furler.
In addition, we loop another knot in the line so that there is a knot about 3-4 inches behind the cow hitch. That 3-4 inch space is where we clip on the whisker pole. The second knot keeps the pole close to the clew.
Another trick that we sometimes use on the C22 for racing is to take a length of Amsteel or other high strength line, splice a small loop in one end so it is about 12" long after the loop is spliced in, and secure that to the midpoint of our single line genoa sheet by running the end through the loop. This "pigtail" line is used to tie the sheet to the clew using a bowline. The single bowline knot is quick and easy to untie for a sail change or stowing the sail after sailing.

DavidP
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN
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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1424 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2017 :  17:41:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We also use the cow-hitch. To avoid chafe on our 135 genny, I put on PVC tubing, w/ the caps top and bottom...It may seem to be a bit much but the forward shrouds are about 6'-6" tall, and the side stays are 4' tall. While good form when tacking is always the goal, we all know that is not always possible, and these rollers go a long way in extending sail life.

Jerry
Whisper
C-25, #1672,'80, SR/SK
S. Jamesport, NY
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Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
399 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2017 :  09:13:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Again Everyone,

Good suggestions all and I will also endeavor to improve my technique.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.
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