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 Keel swivel pin with worn keel
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treadlite
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/12/2018 :  20:28:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I purchased my 1982 Catalina 25 last October. I knew there was something wrong with the keel right away. I had trained on another 25, or I wouldn't have even known there was a problem

I noticed a slightly clunking sound coming from the hull. It almost sounded like the waves hitting the hull, but it didn't seem to match the rhythm. Was thinking it might be loose rigging that would cause the mast to make noise through the hull, but something told me it was the keel.

Asked the previous owner if the cable had replaced or inspected, which it hadn't, and he had owned it for over 7 years. This boat has mainly been sitting in a fresh water marina but pulled out every winter. Reading stories about dropped keels I decided to immediately get it out of the water.

I then checked the keel I found it was greatly worn down. Tons of side slop and an oblong hole. It measures about 1 1/4" on direction and 1 5/8" another.

So I ordered a new pin and a sleeve. I have read about epoxy, but what about trying to weld it in? Since the keel is cast and probably not the best quality and full of impurities, is welding even an option? Is it still OK to use epoxy with this much wear?

BTW, the cable was actually still in pretty good shape.





1982 Catalina 25 swing keel.
Located on or around Utah Lake, Utah

Edited by - treadlite on 02/13/2018 09:45:07

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3710 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2018 :  22:38:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That hole is much larger than the sleeve and more than I would back fill with epoxy. I used epoxy on mine, but it it required drilling to get the sleeve in with a sliding fit. I think your best bet would be to build up weld until the diameter is about what ever the sleeve o.d. is and true it by drilling. Then use a high compression strength epoxy to set it.

edit:
I would also replace the lifting cable since you have access and change to CD's attachment system if it still has an eyebolt.


Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Edited by - Dave5041 on 02/12/2018 22:42:17
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dasreboot
Admiral

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698 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2018 :  05:22:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I never welded cast iron. My father always told me it was difficult. Apparently it is:

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/welding-how-to/Pages/welding-cast-iron-detail.aspx

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
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treadlite
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2018 :  09:33:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dave, yeah I ordered a new cable as well. I will look at the eybolt as well, I forgot about that.

I have welded cast iron before and it sucks and there is so much corrosion, I am sure I will need to remove a ton of material. The sleeve shows up tomorrow so I will see how far off the hole is, but I think a good pre-heat might have to do the trick.

Another thing I was thinking is building a stainless steel sandwich plate. Wonder how soft the cast iron is to drill some holes.

1982 Catalina 25 swing keel.
Located on or around Utah Lake, Utah
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3234 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2018 :  10:39:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't know much about the lifting system not having one but my thought is to just get a larger OD sleeve/bushing.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound



Edited by - islander on 02/13/2018 12:24:44
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dasreboot
Admiral

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698 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2018 :  11:17:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by treadlite
Wonder how soft the cast iron is to drill some holes.



i drilled some holes in mine for zincs. it wasnt hard. did it with a hand drill and some spray oil for cutting fluid.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
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treadlite
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2018 :  12:57:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by islander

I don't know much about the lifting system not having one but my thought is to just get a larger OD sleeve/bushing.



Oh yeah, didn't think about sourcing a larger OD bushing.

Since I am going to source my own, what material would be best?

bronze or stainless?

I heave read that low oxygen stainless can still have issues


1982 Catalina 25 swing keel.
Located on or around Utah Lake, Utah
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3234 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2018 :  14:42:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't know what the one from CD is made of, It doesn't say but the pin is Bronze so I would guess a Bronze bushing maybe would be ok. Bronze on Bronze. You said the widest part of the hole was around 1"5/8 so maybe slightly smaller at 1 1/2" would work? Are they supposed to be pressed in tight or a little loose? I'm just guessing here. Maybe an OD of 1 1/2 and a little epoxy if it is? Anyway this is one at 1" ID x 1 1/2OD x 2 1/2 OAL.http://www.bronzebushings.com/sae-841/sleeve-bushings/inch-sleeve-bushings/1-00-inch-id/p-105-20-sae841-sleeve-1-id-x-1-1-2-od-x-2-1-2-oal.html

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


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Erik Cornelison
1st Mate

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91 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2018 :  19:53:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've welded some cast iron, some can be welded and some are frustrating. You might make it work but you need to know what type of cast iron it is. You will need to preheat the welding area for a long time.. 1/2 hour or more because of the mass of the keel piece being welded as it will absorb a lot of heat. Use a acetylene torch with a rose bud tip, not a cutting tip. Bring the welding area up to (GUESSING FROM OTHER CAST IRON WELDING) 450-500 degrees F. Read the directions for the pre-heat on the welding rod container. Also you will need to ping the welds to relieve stress while hot. All this heat means you would be better off taking the keel off or your going to melt away the fiberglass boat bottom.

another thought is to braze in a collar for a new pin.

Erik Cornelison
6th Generation Professional Sailor, First Gen Submarine Sailor.
1986 Standard Rig SW. #5234
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sailboat
Navigator

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USA
141 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2018 :  21:26:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That clunking could also be side to side slop. CD makes some shims that take care of that. The shims eliminated the clunking on our 25. Also replaced the keel hangars and swivel pin. Works great.

Mike
Chariots of Fire
1981 Cat-25. sail number 2230
SR/SK Dinette Version
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treadlite
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2018 :  21:38:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah I have ordered the hanger kit and shims.

So I think I have found a good solution.

I will temporary weld a 1/2" thick plate to one side of the keel and make sure it is true. Then go rent one of these and drill baby drill. At that point I can get whatever size bushing I need. With this there will be no need to remove the keel and take it in from a machine shop, it can be done while the boat is still sitting on the trailer.

https://www.unitedrentals.com/marketplace/equipment/tools-power-hand-surveying/drills/drill-press-magnetic-12#/

1982 Catalina 25 swing keel.
Located on or around Utah Lake, Utah
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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3710 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2018 :  22:24:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Stainless is OK, but silicon bronze would be optimal if you have the option. It would be more resistant to corrosion and more workable, but probably pretty expensive.


Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Edited by - Dave5041 on 02/13/2018 22:29:38
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3234 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2018 :  05:57:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The magnetic drill works very well. Have one in the shop at work. Question, What seals the water out of the joint between the sleeve and the keel to keep it from rusting? Is this where the epoxy comes into play?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3710 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2018 :  22:05:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, it is a machine press fit by design, but a sliding fit with epoxy does it as well. Mine has been fine for a number of years, as also has been the performance of my nylon and stainless washers to prevent lateral movement of the keel and wear on the hangers.


Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3234 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2018 :  05:26:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Dave, since I don't have one I'm curious as to what's acceptable and what's not.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


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Frank Law
Navigator

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153 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2018 :  13:19:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I had the very same problem a very large elongated hole much bigger than the sleeve from C D . I found a machine shop that made me a new sleeve and I filed drilled some of the iregularties out . Then I think I filled the entire hole with epoxy and pushed the Pin thru the glop 1st covering the hole . I sailed with the new sleeve for several years and the epoxy stayed firm . I installed two stainless washers on either side of the sleeve. Good luck
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treadlite
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2018 :  08:59:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So either someone has attempted to repair before and glob welded a ton in and around the hole. This made cutting the new hole VERY difficult as my cutter won't cut through harden weld. So instead I spent about 9 hours, drilling, then with a fine tip tapered carbide burr, I would poke holes around the ring that was created by the cutter, then drill, then poke, then drill then poke, and about half way through the keel I finally got through all the weld crap and punched through the rest in about 30 minutes. For mounting the drill, I couldn't get a smooth enough surface and the depth of the drill was only 2 inches, so welding on a plate for a 100% flat surface wouldn't work and I ended up welding on a couple bolts to the keel and used a strap across the base of the drill to hold it to the keel.

Drill cost me $150 to rent for a day, and the 1 3/4" annular cutter cost me $140. So overall cost to cut the hole was $290. I haven't got the bushing yet, but I got a 1-11/16 " OD with 1"ID x 12" for $80. it will be a little bit of a loose fit but that is good since there really wasn't a good way to make sure the hole was aligned with the keel. This should give me enough play to have it aligned.

Total cost to fix... around $370 + a lot of work.

I will post pictures after I get the bushing installed.

1982 Catalina 25 swing keel.
Located on or around Utah Lake, Utah

Edited by - treadlite on 02/20/2018 09:02:23
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3234 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2018 :  09:30:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
a lot of work

They tell me that when working on a boat its not work but instead a Labor of love so It sounds like you gave it Allota Lovin. Looks like you can make a few spare bushings for future replacements out of the piece you had made. As long as there is progress....its all good.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


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treadlite
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2018 :  09:30:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here are a few pics.
















1982 Catalina 25 swing keel.
Located on or around Utah Lake, Utah

Edited by - treadlite on 02/20/2018 09:32:22
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Erik Cornelison
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2018 :  16:23:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That looks like a ton of work and I got tired just watching. Someone who takes this project on has got to have some stamina.

Erik

Erik Cornelison
6th Generation Professional Sailor, First Gen Submarine Sailor.
1986 Standard Rig SW. #5234

Edited by - Erik Cornelison on 02/20/2018 16:24:47
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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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3953 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2018 :  17:49:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by treadlite

Yeah I have ordered the hanger kit and shims.

So I think I have found a good solution.

I will temporary weld a 1/2" thick plate to one side of the keel and make sure it is true. Then go rent one of these and drill baby drill. At that point I can get whatever size bushing I need. With this there will be no need to remove the keel and take it in from a machine shop, it can be done while the boat is still sitting on the trailer.

https://www.unitedrentals.com/marketplace/equipment/tools-power-hand-surveying/drills/drill-press-magnetic-12#/



Glad to see you chose the company I work for! 38 years and counting.

What part of the country do you live in?


Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 02/20/2018 19:17:42
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3234 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2018 :  07:41:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jeez Gary, You couldn't have got him a discount on the rental??

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


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treadlite
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2018 :  10:39:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:


What part of the country do you live in?



Utah. I sail in Utah Lake, which is a very large lake in square miles, just only about 10 feet average depth.

1982 Catalina 25 swing keel.
Located on or around Utah Lake, Utah
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cat25
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2018 :  17:11:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Had same problem with 1980 catalina 22. The hole was elongated the with of almost two holes. Took the keel to a welding shop. the welder drilled out the hole and pressed in a bronze bushing with the correct size hole. This was also a machine shop it worked great.

Ken
Chenango~
1990~TR~WK~C25~#6022
Stamford Ct/LI Sound
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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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3953 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2018 :  19:12:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by islander

Jeez Gary, You couldn't have got him a discount on the rental??


Probably but he didn't ask!


Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX
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treadlite
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2018 :  19:09:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So got some work done this week. Used a 1 5/8" brash bushing which then I epoxied in and let the keel hang under its weight to make sure it would set inline. Then I ground down material around the bushing so I could fit a 3" washer. There was already quite an indentation around the bushing just from wear. I then welded the washer in place.

The washer will take most of the twisting load from the bushing instead of the epoxy. This should work out great as that bushing will be replaceable if needed, and could always cut out and re-weld in new washers if the welds rust away.

I dont' know why they didn't make a replaceable bushing from the factory.










1982 Catalina 25 swing keel.
Located on or around Utah Lake, Utah
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