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Can we vote new rudder rules?

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/29/2005 : 01:01:34

Association Officers and Fellow Members:

I would like to propose that we either change the requirements for the "class legal" C25 rudder, or drop rudder wording altogether. If someone wants to make a "sticky" of this and discuss it, that is fine with me.

As most of you know, the C25 has at LEAST two, and maybe 3, rudders that are "legal" for One Design and Nationals competition: the original, the balanced and, some say, a "semi-balanced", but I have no personal knowledge of that one.

Since my old, original rudder recently snapped off at the lower pintle, I immediately contacted both Catalina Direct and Catalina Yachts about getting replacement. Neither had one in stock, and I was told it would be weeks (and CD had been waiting MONTHS) to have one built.

Since I needed one right away, I ordered a new "high performance" rudder from IdaSailor for far less money than Catalina wants. This rudder is carved from a blank of HDPE, whatever kind of "plastic" that is. The upside, besides price, is that this rudder has no core to rot, no seams to split, and it has a lifetime warranty. I suspect that, as our boats age, these will become popular options. If they prove to work well, they may become "THE" replacement rudder of the future....The thing is, I would like to race with mine, and I am concerned that someone will complain unless the rudder is "legal", or we throw out rudder language altogether, except maybe to say that rudders must be "factory" or "aftermarket manufactured", not homemade????

According to CD, the original rudder is 67.25 inches long on the trailing edge and is 17" wide at the base. The "balanced" rudder they offer is quite different, since a fair amount of material is ahead of the pintles, offsetting the forces on the rudder and giving what they claim is "power-steering". It measures 65" on the vertical, and ranges a lot in width, from 11.7/8" at the approximate waterline to 17 3/8" at the widest point where it breaks forward below the "skeg" and then tapers down to 15" at the base. These two rudders are SIGNIFICANTLY different, IMHO. The Ida Sailor rudder (which is not yet installed as I mistakenly requested pintles that were too small) is much longer at 75 1/4", but is quite a bit narrower, with nothing over 11 3/4". I have not weighed the rudders, but the new one seems "comparable", although they claim it has "neutral bouyancy". I know the original floats; somebody down river saw the 3' of mine that snapped off, on its way to Japan!

I honestly do not know if it performs well or not, but I hope to use it in a week or so. I just know that there are SO many variables in C25s as it is....different "Marks" to use Larry Charlot's words, different keels for crying out loud (swing, wing and fin, each with its own advantages and disadvantages) and different layouts and, obviously, even different displacements---but they race and rate equal! My proposed rudder language change seems to me to be relatively minor in comparison.

So, there it is.....that is the argument in a nutshell. Obviously, i want to use this because it's cheaper, more readily AVAILABLE, and, I think, will last longer...plus, I like the warranty idea. I just don't want to get disqualified or protested for using it.

Anybody want to second this idea, and can we get a vote on it? After sufficient discussion, of course....I am no expert in rudder dynamics...

Gary Bruner
Fleet 94 Captain
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2005 : 06:22:46

Gary and friends,
No problem with a "second" from me. You Failed to bring up the 3 different Jib track configurations. Outboard Left/right/Inboard. Dinette/Traditional.
If a rudder ever turned out to be a Nationals winning Secret weapon, I am sure we will be smart enough to figure out a handicap.

Tom.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2005 : 08:10:28

The officers will be discussing this in the monthly meeting tomorrow evening.

dw

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2005 : 10:39:35

Hi Gary,

According to the Association by-laws, any paid up member in good standing can propose rules changes at any time. The proposed change is then published as a ballot in either the Mainsheet magazine or the TellTale newsletter. The membership then votes on the new rule and a simple majority one way or the other determines the outcome.

So, write up the change you're thinking about and send it to the officers for inclusion in the upcoming election.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2005 : 11:10:13

I agree with Tom that we should allow the new rudder, with the understanding that, in the future, we might add a small handicap if the new rudder proves to be measurably faster.

I'd also like to see the rule require anyone using the Idasailor rudder to declare it. If it's not declared, then we won't have a chance to look over the results and try to get a sense as to whether the rudder performs significantly better than the stock one. By declaring it, the owner won't be getting any different handicap in the regatta that he's entering. It will just let the race officials know that there's an Idasailor rudder in the regatta, and give them a chance to compare it's performance with other approved rudders. If the owners of the Idasailor rudders get beaten as often as they win, then the rudder probably isn't enough of an advantage to worry about. If they win consistently, then we should start to consider adding a small handicap.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2005 : 11:58:46

Your proposal (s) seems fair.....but with all the other "deviations", it might be tricky to determine whether the rudder makes the difference. I would be up for "switching" rudders with local racers (a couple of whom are pretty fair matches for me). That might tell us something as well. I am okay with a "handicap" if it proves "fair"; I just don't want to have 2 rudders (one just for One Design races, etc.) and relegate the new IdaSailor just for cruising!

Gary

PS I see on the C25 forum that someone is asking about the Ida Sailor "Kick-up" rudder! Wow....so many options....

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2005 : 13:04:02

This is precisely the type of issue and discussion that was contemplated to be handled via the new Racing Committee; see draft new Constitution and By-Laws thread. Also given adoption of the new by-laws, only a majority of C25 Members voting will be required to pass a change to the C25 Design Class Rules, whereas today it requires a majority of all Members voting.

It would be sensible to table this motion until after October 1st since the C250 Members will be voting and, therefore, may very well seriously skew your majority. Just a suggestion.

Edited by - Sea Trac on 08/29/2005 13:07:32

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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1349 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2005 : 14:06:15

Gary, how about posting a couple of pictures of the IDA rudder so all could get a look at the design, thickness and length. A ruler laid along side would enhance the visual for comparsion.

Edited by - frog0911 on 08/29/2005 22:20:21

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2005 : 16:32:22

The rudder issue could be solved by coming up with a simple Square Inches Maximum requirement. If we relaxed the rules on this, it might inspire development into better rudders.

This would be especially true for the 250's.

It could read like this.

" The rudder must be #### Square inches Minimum. ##### Square inches Maximum. And may be no deeper than #### Inches. Non Factory rudders must be declared for class racing."

I am not into racing but feel I could benefit from a Hi-tech rudder.

Tom.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2005 : 17:41:56

I want to remove any and all rudder language from the 25 and 250 class rules. That is what I would like to do.

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2005 : 22:24:46

Frank,
That sounds like the best idea. If it ever becomes an issue, we could revisit the subject.

Tom.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2005 : 00:28:55

Froggie,

I do not personally have the capability to take digital pictures, nor to post them (techno-dinosaur). Maybe I can get a friend of mine to do it. I will ask. The IdaSailor website has a picture, but only about half of it loads on my computer. Here is the address to IdaSailor: www.idasailor.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=33&osCsid=7bb5198fc9cf418008b0823d3d1d01d1

There are diagrams and measurements of the other two in the CD Catalogue.

So, where from here? Frank's idea may be the simplest, but I suspect someone may then feel free to come up with a home-made "secret weapon"....I guess, then, we could deal with it.

I am curious what the officers decided in their "meeting" tonight. Anyone care to fill me/us in? Or, should we wait until Oct 1? I thought it might be a good idea to include this in the election of officers voting......killing two birds....?

Gary B.
Fleet 94 Captain
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - Gary B. on 08/30/2005 01:08:05

gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2005 : 00:40:08

Wow, I like this topic!!

This would make a great research topic for an engineering group or student. I happen to "own" an engineering student at CalPoly SLO although he's an aero type which isn't too far removed from hydrodynamics....
It would be excellent to be able to tank test this IdaSailor design against (as in at the same time) all the other designs presently used. Only then could you get a fair estimation of the advantages and/or disadvantages of any one design. Let the science determine the outcome

of the rudder decision. Surely the IdaSailor people have researched their design and can provide data and maybe Catalina can provide some of their data. If there's a reason they changed to the balanced rudder then they MUST have data substantiating the change, right?

Also, my balanced-style rudder has shown some wear around the pintel bolt holes with chunks having fallen out. I've been filling and redrilling lately so might be interested in a rudder that is rock-solid and helps me sail faster than Jim's fin keel

. Maybe I need to buy some Mylar sails, too!!
No matter what, there needs to be a discussion some time about how to repair and reinforce the through-bolt points on the rudder so they don't ever fail.

I'll check with my son and see what he says.

Edited by - gnorgan on 08/30/2005 00:46:40

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2005 : 10:23:46

I have used the "balanced" rudder for a number of years and have appreciated its strength, rigidity, and in particlular, heavy air control. I have not noticed a particlular speed advantage over the old rudder however. In my opinion we should we should tremporarily suspend the rudder requirement for this year and do the research Gary Norgan suggested - just to ensure we are on firm ground before we make the final decision. As a minimum, the research would be interesting to our owners.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2005 : 11:41:07

Al, This is not a bad idea.....except for the issue of who would do this and WHEN? If Gary's son could actually do it and had access to a tank, etc., I might well agree. But Gary says he is in aeronautics. He would have to get examples of all three rudders, etc. I am fearful that this would get "shelved" and then never dealt with.

My concern is that elections are coming SOON, and this seems the time to vote on changing things. If a tank test, or actual experience, (not to be confused with 'theory") later proves these rudders to be a "Secret weapon", then it seems like we can deal with the issue, either with handicap (now often used at Nationals to "equalize" Tall Rigs/vs standard rigs and spinnakers vs JAM boats), or by outlawing them if we must.

Like others, I am not convinced at all that these rudders actually are significantly FASTER (maybe, like yours, just more user-friendly), and for that reason I suggest that we go ahead with a vote.

I have been involved in so many processes in my work in education that never lead to anything that I would rather scratch while it itches.....

Respectfully,

Gary B.

IF we knew of someone who could MOVE on this and get her done expeditiously, not 'maybe' and "months from now" I would
more readily agree. I have been waiting for 14 months now to get the results of the 2004 Nationals up the racing part of our website.....still waiting.....that is one example of what I mean......

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2005 : 12:13:24

I haven't heard anyone yet express the opinion that the Idasailor rudder will be so much faster than the stock ones that we need to worry about it. So, why not just allow them, but require that they be declared, so we can look at their long-term (2-3 year) results, and if they don't seem to matter, after 2-3 years we can drop the requirement that they be declared? We can do tank tests and switch rudders from boat-to-boat, but why bother? If the long-term results are ambiguous, we can do those tests later, if anyone is sufficiently concerned. I don't think we should drop all rudder regulations, because, in the future, someone might come up with an incredibly fast foil that would be unfair.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2005 : 13:21:39

The officers will be discussing this tonight in the monthly meeting.

Edited by - on

gnorgan
Admiral

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563 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2005 : 20:50:59

My son called be about 2 minutes after I posted my reply so I talked to him about this issue.
Tank testing would be expensive so forget that!!!
Rudders in water are like wings in the air. Water is just alot denser but the dynamics are similar. Drag is the issue and he suggested we have the makers of the rudders give us their "overall drag" numbers to compare since each rudder MIGHT have drag differences at different points along its overall length. This would be far cheaper (free?) than testing and much quicker.
Now...can the drag numbers be collected? Email the makers of potential rudders and ask for their data.

Or we could just vote on it.....

Besides, if you're not racing it really doesn't matter either way. I think I'll just polish the bejeezes out of the rudder I've got and forget about it.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2005 : 21:41:19

Al,

I mis-read this part of your post, "In my opinion we should we should tremporarily suspend the rudder requirement for this year and do the research Gary Norgan suggested ".

I THOUGHT you meant "suspend discussion" until after testing; that is why I responded the way I did. My apologies. A more careful reading makes your point more agreeable to me. Sorry again for suggesting that there was not "time" to deal with it. I will try to be more careful and not jump to conclusions.....

Gary B.'
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

PS So far, I am not hearing much from those who think this is a BAD idea....???? Speak up!

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2005 : 08:06:08

Here are the results of this discussion from the officers meeting last night.

The proposed racing rules for both fleets have been changed to state the following and will be the rules that the Association votes on this coming month.
Section D now reads
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">1. Rudders shall be made from a mold commercially available to all competitors. (Rudders manufactured for C-25s (or 250 for the 250's) by Catalina Yachts or elsewhere prior to the publication and association approval of these rules are considered to be approved. In the case where the rudders are obviously different from those now being manufactured, proof of origin may be required.)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Section D4 (D5 for the 250's) now reads
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">4. For the period beginning October 1, 2005 through October 1, 2008 when racing in a race governed by these class rules (as indicated in the Sailing Instructions or Notice of Race) all rudders that are not original equipment must be declared on the racing application. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Please note - This is not an exact excerpt, but indicates our intentions.

Edited by - Champipple on 08/31/2005 08:30:46

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 08/31/2005 : 08:22:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
 1. Rudders shall be made from a mold commercially available to all competitors...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Does this exclude home-built rudders?

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2005 : 08:47:44

Don,

Not if it is already in place Don. there is also a section that allows for a application for a variance which can be given at the discretion of the rules committee

dw

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2005 : 14:37:41

This sounds great to me. What next? It needs to be voted upon by the membership, yes? Will that accompany the ballot we use this fall for officer positions?

Thanks so much for dealing with this so expeditiously!

Gary B.
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR
Fleet 94 Captain

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2005 : 15:17:34

The wording pertaining to commercially available rudders is included with the design class rules, which the officers are proposing and which the membership will be asked to vote on.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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1709 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2005 : 19:34:00

Way to go board members. A nicely worded change to the rules which fits the situation perfectly. I gues that's why the membersip pays you all the "big bucks", right?

I still think we should go ahead and gather what data we can on available rudders. Gary's most recent suggestion regarding drag numbers sounds like an easy way to do it. Perhaps we can start the ball rolling with IdaSailor. They might, in the interest of garnering business from us, be willing to take the lead in the research, provided they can do it in an unbiased, manner, sic.. Or, perhaps Catalina would do it, which is in it's best interest. Or, perhaps a committee can be formed to do an internet search for the data. One or two members should be able to do it in a fairly short time.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/01/2005 : 07:26:32

If there is an engineer out there who would like to donate their time and do so we wouldn't turn them away

Edited by - on

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