Association Forum - Broken Keel bolt on 1989 winged keel

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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Broken Keel bolt on 1989 winged keel

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tom weekes
Deckhand

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3 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/18/2005 : 16:12:58

I have a 1989 25 Catalina tall rig with a winged keel. When I went to check the keel bolts One of the six keel bolts was rusted through the other 5 seemed strong. I spoke to a person in a local yard and they wanted to pull the vessel chip out the existing bolts and put in new ones. total cost appox 3 boat units. I searched on the forum and found that Catalina Direct has a retrofit. I just spoke to Catalina Direct and they say that my keel is lead not cast iron as I thought. They also said that the retrofit did not come with instructions just five bolts, 10 washers, a 18 inch drill bit and some "tef gel" for easy insertion. I asked if this could be done in the water due to the fact that the vessel just got a bottom job in May 2005 also, the bolts are 8" long going into a 38" deep keel.
He said that I was taking a chance due to possable separation from the hull. He also said this is the first 25 Catalina he knows of with this problem (retrofit is made for a 27 Catalina). My Question is has anyone done this and how did you go about doing it, please be specific.
Thanks

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2005 : 23:09:53

How long have you had the boat, where do you sail, and what on earth has been in your bilge? I also have an 89 wing and my bolts look so good they could pass for dental tools.

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2005 : 08:33:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 I also have an 89 wing and my bolts look so good they could pass for dental tools.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Same here. I have never heard of a corrosion problem with stainless steel keel bolts. Maybe this one bolt has a manufacturing defect in it's alloy, like not enough chromium or nickel? Scary thought, having your keel bolts rusted out! When Jim Baumgartner bought his '79 fin keel (Indiscipline III), it was discovered that all the keel bolts were rusted out - they're carbon steel on those older 25's - and the keel was only hanging onto the boat by a thread (the joint sealant and bottom paint!). All the bolts had to be drilled out and replaced. Remarkably, the keel joint never separated and no leak developed (lucky for Jim).

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tom weekes
Deckhand

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3 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2005 : 09:21:53

I bought the boat in 2000. It has always been sailed in the gulf of Mexico its entire life. I agree with you that until I tugged on the Keel Bolts they all looked like they too could pass for dental tools.
As the tech person at Catalina Direct stated maybe mine is the first of alot to come. Good luck but, I suggest you test your keel bolts.
When I find my solution I will let you know what I end up doing.

Edited by - on

Brian King
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2005 : 13:33:41

I also have a '89 C25 SR/WK and the keel bolts appear to be in perfect condition also. This boat is super dry, never have any water in the bilge no matter what. I have always thought of checking the torque on the nuts. Does anyone have any idea what the correct torque setting is for the keel bolts/nuts?

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2005 : 19:28:40

Gentlemen,
The above description is a real problem with stainless steel. If it has free oxygen around it it maintains its inert coating of oxide and is stable and can be trusted. If it passes through wet wood or GRP with no air and/or no water exchange it will then attack itself and corrode spectacularly fast. As a surveyor I do not trust stainless bolts that pass thru potentially wet areas. This is called oxygen starvation corrosion and also occurs in other alloyed metals. Lower rudder gudgeon bolts are also at risk for this. Stainless bolts always look great on the ends you can see but they are occationally entirely missing in the middle. Dave

Edited by - Dave Laux on 10/19/2005 19:32:18

Scooter
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2005 : 08:56:33

I also have SR/WK '89 and mine look fine and I keep the bilge very clean. I would like to know what tor que to use though so I could test them. I do occasionally get water in the bilge.

There was 4 inches in it when I bought it.

Priority job 1 this winter. Seal the water tank inlet and make a cover for the companion way slide using existing pop top snaps. Water comes in there if it rains in the right direction.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2005 : 11:43:44

Dave's got it right... fellow at our marina... just back from a winter in the Bahamas... was walking across the tarmac with a hand full of stainles bolts that looked fine on either end and like Swiss cheese in the middle. I had never seen such a thing and he explained the oxigen starved condition that Dave did. MAN if ya can't trust yer stainless bolts what can ya

Val on Calista # 3936

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pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2005 : 14:03:14

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't think SS could rust.

Is there a solution?

Thanks,

PW

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2005 : 21:16:28

Yes, keep it dry and well ventilated. This is not rust, its worse than rust because it happens a lot faster. Its galvanic corrosion at its worst. In the case of the keel bolts that started this thread the only cure is to pull them one at a time and replace any that show signs of damage. In any case do not put your trust in stainless steel. Dave

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2005 : 09:52:59

Dave, The wing retrofit kit that Catalina provided came with stainless bolts molded into the wing with approximately 8" protruding from the top. When installed it is slathered with epoxy goop and glue/bolted to the boat. What's your take on this.

Val on Calista # 3936

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2005 : 19:03:08

Val, Since your bolts do not pass through a wood layer and are epoxy sealed you are certainly OK now, and probably far into the future. The problem comes with places where there is a reservior of water that cannot get any replacement. The piece of plywood that is laminated into the keel stub on our boats is a perfect example. If the ply stays dry there is air around the bolt and it does not decay. But if the ply gets wet, and all of it does sooner or later, the conditions are right for anerobic electrochemical disintegration of the stainless steel bolts where they pass through the stub. Two bolts side by side may show a lot of difference in the degree of this failure. Its a really difficult thing to determine but the potential is always there. The worst part of this is to insist, as a surveyor, that the questionable bolts be pulled to find no corrosion. Fortunatly for me that has not happened. The insistance of the owner is always that the part of the bolt we can see is in perfect condition so the rest of it must be good. As you have written above thats not always the case. Warm tropical water definitely speeds the process. The thing that saves most of us from disaster is that keel bolts and other fasteners are mostly way over strength for the load actually imposed on them. Dave

Edited by - Dave Laux on 10/27/2005 07:57:40

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2005 : 10:55:19

Dave,
As someone who is obviously well acquainted with this subject perhaps you can offer an opinion on the new C25 Keel Bolt Retrofit Kit for Cast Iron Keels that Catalina Direct is now offering. The studs that come with their kit, according to a technician I talked with, are stainless steel which would seem to me to be an equation for failure given your explanation above. The CD tech also told me that all C25's were built with stainless keel bolts so there is a difference of opinion on that subject as well. If one is going to go to the trouble of boring new bolt holes in his iron keel would it be better to use mild steel studs or the stainless ones they provide?

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2005 : 19:40:08

If they were installed as the original ones were then a good grade of galvanized mild steel might be the safest bet. However you could hole saw a hole about 1/2 inch bigger than the bolt through the glass and ply to the top of the outer glass layer. Drill your new bolt hole and thread it. Clean it out carefully. Pour some epoxy in the hole.Put in the bolt. Pour more resin around the bolt. Put a layer of thickened resin and glass (about 100 0z. of mat and or bidirectional) under the washer. Run the nut down just enough to hold the flat washer flat ( no lock washer at this time). After the resin cures ad the lock washer and torque the fastener. A little heat will release the nut if you get it stuck

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2005 : 22:47:21

Dave L,

Very cool repair method! I like the part about replacing the wood core in the way of the new keel bolt with thickened epoxy. Seems like it might even work on a boat in the water, if the keel stub could be kept dry long enough for the epoxy work. Thanks for posting it.

-- Leon Sisson

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