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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Nissan motor update

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/22/2005 : 16:50:15

Well F I N A L L Y.

The motor is on and running after being partially broken in in the garage in a bucket of water.

It runs smoothly and quietly and pushed the boat along at 5 kns at half throttle ( guess, no tach )this on a hull that's been in salt water since April, and is slimed real good

. I see no need to change props at this time.

The motor is difficult to tilt compared to the design used on the Johnson Sailmaster. One is expected to hold up the tilt handle on the motors port side while grasping the back of the cowling with the other hand and pulling it up to tilt. I've had to tie the tilt handle with a light line to the stern railing in order to reach the cowling. It's a chore for me. If any of the other Nissan/Tohatsu users have a solution to this I'd appreciate your sharing same.

There is a slight vibration that comes on at 2 kts and then again at 4kts. Above, below, and in between these speeds it runs vibration free. The prop is not damaged nor fouled with weeds etc. The boat picks up the vibration as well in harmony with the motor. I sense the same vibes while holding my hand on the cowl. I'll use the motor as is for now but once its been hauled I'll be in a better position to determine the cause of the vibrations.

Val on Calista # 3936

Val Bisagni]

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2005 : 19:17:38

Tilting my old Honda 10 took about the same amount of effort and same technique as you describe - a real backbreaker, and it's why I am happy to have Power Tilt on my new Yamaha.
My Yamaha also induces harmonic vibration in the hull at certain engine speeds, but it's neglible compared to the vibration you get in Catalina 25's with the optional inboard diesel (we have two of these in our sailing club).

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2005 : 22:53:32

I have an 04 Tohatsu, supposely the same motor, but I don't have to do anything except grap the back of the motor and tilt it up, provided it is in neutral or forward gear. Once up I then have to reach around to the port side and push down on the small tilt locking lever to hold it in place.
If you cannot tilt the motor up make sure it is in neutral or forward gear. If in reverse the motor is automacticlly locked in the down position and won't come up.

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2005 : 12:06:24

On my Nissan there is a locking lever that must be released to tilt it up. It is on the port side, down low (at or near the base), and has a flat head. Just push up on the lever to unlock it from it's down position. Then of course there is another lever with a round head. above the other one, to release it from it's tilted up position. I have no idea how universal these configurations are but.. anyway that's how mine works.

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2005 : 12:08:31

Regarding the effort that it takes... once the lever is released :) hardly any. It just tilts back.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2005 : 13:01:25

Could you post a picture of the setup? It sounds very complicated or a design by "Rub Goldberg" for an outboard. When Wilma's rain goes by, somtime Monday, I will take some pictures of the Tohatsu setup and post for difference comparison.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2005 : 13:18:34

On the 05 model the tilt up lever is a horseshoe shaped piece of flat stock about 12 gauge. It's on the port side, down low and must be held up while tilting. It needs to be held up with a light line tied off somewhere. Before you can do this the starboard side lever, the round headed, must be pushed towards the prop, this one needn't be held. Having done this you then reach to the back of the cowl and PULL. By contrast the sailmaster could be tilted while seated by reaching to the starboard side of the motor and flipping a lever up for tilting up and back for returning to the water, and having done so a slight tug on the rear of the cowl and it was done.

I'm hoping at this time that I'm doing something wrong but I've read and reread the instructions several times and it's the same.

And so now I'm rebuilding the '93 Sailmaster expecting to put it to use next season

Val on Calista # 3936

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2005 : 09:43:33

Frogs reply to shift into forward was right on. There is an adjustable block on the shift rod going to the lower unit that when shifted into forward lifts the anti reverse member allowing the motor to tilt. WHEW ! On my motor the block needs to be adjusted since it doesn't work in neutral also as it should.

Hoping for some sailing weather so that I might get some time on the motor before haul-out time.

Thanks all.

Val on Calista # 3936

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2005 : 18:10:21

Hello all. I have been in Washington St for the past 2 weeks. I put the 6.5 pitch prop on and now the motor reaches 4950 rpm. It seems to run a little smoother in the midrange. With the stock 7.5 prop it would only reach 4500 rpm. I do need to clean the bottom as it is pretty hairy. With a clean bottom it should get another 100 rpms or so.

I talked to Nissan Marine about developing a 4 blade prop that is simmilar to the one on the Hondas. They got back to me and said they were working on one and should have a working sample in a month. I explained the criteria of more surface area and desire to have less slippage. I guess this is several months away. If you are interested in a 4 blade prop I suggest you bug Nissan.

Tom.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2005 : 21:56:51

Tilting has always been a pain for us too Val. We've used the Half way bar that can be used in Shallow Water, but have never really tilted the motor. If anyone has a tried and true tilt method, chime in b/c I'm looking for one too.

Try taking it off for a race, now that gets real fun.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2005 : 11:25:12

Duane,

I just got back from a two hour motor and I'm starting to get aquainted with this motor's differences with previous motors. I'm really starting to like it. It now has a little over three hours on it and it seems to be settling in. The vibrations that I took exception to initially have remedied themselves, perhaps as an effect of the running in process. The boat moves especially mell with the stock prop. Today it made 3 knots at a crack above idle. At the mark on the trottle for warm restarts. Half trottle made five knots and a two minute 3/4 trottle run made hull speed. Speeds recorded were an average between gps and speedo.

The problems encountered with the tilt mechanisms were equally a product of design and my inability to adjust to a new situation. The old saw about teaching an old dog new tricks applies here.

The two hour run used 1/4 tank of gas. Ok for tooling around locally but an aditional tank would be required for passages.

I'm making a device that fits into the cowl grip for tilting that will be attached to the stern rail by a four to one block system.
I'll let you know how it works out.

All in all I'm pleased with the Nissan.

Val on Calista # 3936

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2005 : 13:20:20

Well the new dog is finally broken in. I was impressed with the low speed 2 hour 7 knm run done previously having used only 1/4 of a full 3 gallon tank. Today I repeated the same run except that it was at a shade under hull speed, 5.7/5.9 kph. And 1 3/4 hours. The tank registered 1/8 gallon consumed. To say that this performance impressed me is not only redundant but an understatement. I know now why they supply a 3 gallon tank with the motor. Fourteen hours running at 5.8 kps is far more than I can handle in a day. That's 81.2 knots on 3 gallons of fuel, WOW.

Or does my calculator need new batteries?

Val on Calista #3936

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2005 : 13:26:29

... That's 81.2 knots on 3 gallons of fuel, WOW.
Or does my calculator need new batteries?

Hi Val,

'Don't know if your calculator needs new batteries, but it looks like Homeland Security is going to need some new patrol boats to keep up with you!

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2005 : 14:46:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tinob
 ...Today I repeated the same run except that it was at a shade under hull speed, 5.7/5.9 kph. And 1 3/4 hours. The tank registered 1/8 gallon consumed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I like word problems!

1/8 of a gallon used over 1 3/4 hours at cruising speed...that's ummm, carry the 4...ought 2...an average of 1/14th gallons per hour at cruising speed...I think

Hmmm, me thinks I'll have to ask my high school math whiz daughter for help!

Edited by - dlucier on 11/04/2005 14:48:10

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2005 : 17:59:15

Me thinks your fuel measuring device may be a wee off. If not I need one of those motors that uses 7 hundredth of a gallon per hour at near hull apeed. The best I have ever done with the new Tohastu is .73gal/hr at 3/4 throttle and 5.9kts.

Edited by - on

DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2005 : 19:34:53

Hey Val, Check your float in the tank cap. It may be that the rails are squeezed a little, causing the float to stick. Mine was giving amazing readings until I freed up the cork bobber thingy.
I'm having problems with the tilt mechanism, too. It works okay at the dock, but won't lift while under sail. Maybe the force of forward motion hangs it up?

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2005 : 08:18:54

Mornin Dan,

I think the tank register is working but to be sure I'll pour in a pint of fuel at a time until the tank is again full. That should dispell any irregularity with the fuel gauges accuracy or confirm the inaccuracy of same.

On the tilt mechanism, I connot fathom such a design getting past initial design investigators. I've purchased a Garelick tilting mechanism ( West Marine @ $ 72+ ) , it works but hurts my sense of self each time I use it

. Some mornings I feel a little stronger than at other times and get away with doing it using my GODZILLA four foot long left arm

Well this Monday is haul out time and I can put this behind me for a time.

Thanks to all, Val on Calista # 3936

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2005 : 08:33:39

The hard may stop our sailing but it does not stop our stewardship. I look forward to your winter projects.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2005 : 11:45:18

Dan,

Just returned from the boat and checked that which you recommended. When I removed the tank cap and turned it upside down the float was free to slide back and forth, NO PROBLEMO. Then I added 63.5 ounces of fuel to fill the tank to the top full indicator.

That's 63.5 ounces of gasoline to travel 7 nautical miles in one hour and fourty five minutes. The trip was an out and back run so that any winds/currents variables cancelled out each other.
Anyone care to tabulate the gallons per hour rate. I've got leaves to rake,mow,vacumn.

Val on Calista #3936

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2005 : 14:23:42

My high school math calculates it to 36 ozs per hour! Or 1 quart + 4 ozs US or 1 quart - 4 ozs UK.....

Derek

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2005 : 15:07:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 My high school math calculates it to 36 ozs per hour!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That sounds a lot closer than the 9oz per hour I calculated earlier!

A 1/4 gallon per hour at cruising speed...That would give my 6 gallon tank a 24 hour run time...I needs to dump my 2 stroke for one of these!

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jaclasch
Navigator

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USA
104 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2005 : 17:52:18

Following is information from an email dialog with Garland Lewis of Nissan Marine:

James to Lewis
Comments: I purchased the Nissan 9.8 hp w electric start in Sept. and
consider it a superb motor EXCEPT the tilt mechanism. On a sailboat it is downright dangerous. I hope you will be coming up with a fix soon, something like Honda and others have. The model I have is NSF9.8A3EF4.
Please comment.

Thank you,
James Schroder

Lewis to James
James,
I have had one other person complain of this and I will explain to you the same response. It clearly states in the owners manual that the tilt mechanism is for tilt at mooring only and not for towing. If you are towing you must use some type of motor support bracket if trailering. It is not designed to be towed behind a boat in rough seas or a bouncing dingy. Most people (other brands included) usually use a block of wood and secure it around the outboard so the engine will not drop. As a factory representative I cannot advocate this. There are other products on the market that allow you to tow the dingy backwards with the engine up and out of the water and only the nose of the boat dragging. You can also use davits and put the boat on the deck. Please contact me if you
have any further questions.

Garland Lewis

James to Garland
Garland,
Thanks for your response. This problem has NOTHING to do with towing. It has to do with tilting the motor out of the water when using the sails instead of motor power. Doing this is easy with motors like the Honda. You only reach down and flip the lever forward. Then when you tilt the motor, it ratchets up and is held positively out of the water. When you want to put the motor down, you simply reach down and flip the lever back. Then you tilt the motor toward you slightly and then lower it to operating angle.

With the Nissan it is a two-handed job all the way while hanging over
the stern. This is not a good procedure on sailboats.

Again, this has nothing to do with towing but with a normal procedure repeated at least twice during each sail.

I hope you understand now.

Regards,
James Schroder

Garland to James
James,
I am sorry but that is our design. I will pass on your request to the engineers in Japan. Thanks.

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2005 : 18:21:35

Hi James,

Thanks for posting that info ... 'VERY interesting. I've been salivating over these outboards, and now I'm not so sure.

Welcome to the group!

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2005 : 09:47:29

Hi, James,
Thanks for contacting Nissan on our behalf. I'd like Garland Lewis's e-mail address. Perhaps sending him these posts mentioning the inadequasy of the tilt design will give the Nissan people pause for thought. Or if not that then how about inviting him to visit this forum to read for himself. Or better yet offer him a ride on one of our Nissan/Tohatsu propelled boats letting him demonstrate the tilt operation

I like this one.
Val on Calista # 3936

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2005 : 09:52:49

Volunteers to let Garland Lewis demonstrate the Nissan/Tohatsu tilt mechanisms on our boats SIGN UP:

1)...Val on Calista #3936

Val

Edited by - on

jaclasch
Navigator

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USA
104 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2005 : 11:18:53

Here is the email address of Garland Lewis from the Nissan Marine website:

garlandl@tohcorp.com

I am certain he will welcome any observations or thoughts that might lead to improvements in this area.

James

Edited by - on

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