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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Mainsail single point reefing

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DJH
Deckhand

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United Kingdom
0 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/26/2005 : 17:14:03

Can any one please tell me how the system copes with luff sliders as they will stack up above the gooseneck i cannot see this on the line diagrams as shown by harken.
Hope someone out there can help
Regards
David

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2005 : 17:39:09

Mast gates are used. You can buy them from a guy here for $25. You drill and tap holes in the mast. These small stainless plates then screw in and close the slot. The luff slides are captive.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2005 : 18:44:09

Harken does not address the stack of slugs. And so if you have a standard sail then your reef cringle will try to crush them. This is why may of us have a "jack line", it allows the reef cringle to get to the goose neck without putting pressure on the slugs. Note the small grommets with a thin line running through them and the slug. The slug is not connected to the sail itself.

By the way, I bought the Harken rig and sent it back. I am an adamant believer in two line reefing, especially as a single hander. I reef and de-reef often and using two lines gives you a much tighter reef and more control, I honestly believe I am quicker too. Show me a single line reef that looks like this...

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 10/26/2005 18:53:15

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2005 : 18:48:54

The mast gate is no longer sold by the inventor/manufacturer. Catalina Direct now sells them for him.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2005 : 22:21:19

What is the equipment list you would recommend (1981 C25 Standard rig, original mainsail)to install reefing with all controls led to cockpit.
I've looked at Franks website but need to know if I should order more than CD's single line reefing kit. I see that Frank recommends double line reefing but I don't know why.
My sail handling equipment situation is about as bare bones as you can get...I have a triple rope clutch on the cabin top - other than that ... its all 1981 stock. My intention is to rig for single handling.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2005 : 22:50:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 I see that Frank recommends double line reefing but I don't know why.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I did a poor job of explaining. If you are in high enough wind to reef you need a flat sail.
In my experience the need to outhaul the reef clew to the absolute maximum requires a lot of tension. The typical clew reef is deadended at an eyestrap on one side of the boom. The reefing line passes up through the reef clew and back down to a cheek block strategically placed to hold the reef cringle tightly to the boom. In order to hold the cringle very tightly to the boom there can be relatively little out haul angle between the eyestrap and the cheek block. If the reef line passes along the boom to the forward end of the boom and is routed to the cabin top the line must go through another cheek block a turning block at the base of the mast and then a deck organizer before getting to the clutch and winch. This route provides a lot of friction and places for line to stretch. Outhauling the reef clew with this minimum line length and friction resulting from turns is the best you can do and it still takes real effort to get it tight. Once the clew is secure you haul the reef tack to the goose neck and it secures easily in place because there is no load on it. (The halyard has been relaxed.) If the line is dead ended at the mast and goes to a turning block at the base of the mast there will be a slight forward pull and it will help the reef foot tension.
However, if you add the task of hauling down the reef tack, the added length of line and associated hardware realities to the single reef clew line you make it too difficult to put in a tight reef. I reef to continue sailing in a high performance mode, other wise I would come in. I expect (well OK actually hope for) a reefed sail to set as well as a non reefed sail. Loosely reefed sails are also prone to damage.
Single line systems my be able to "get it done" but I have never been satisfied with what I have tried and the two line system works well for me every time.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2005 : 00:32:28

For once I have to disagree with Frank (although he sails in more wind than most of us!). I've used a single-line reefing system set-up exactly as he describes - BUT the padeye and cheek block on the aft end of the boom are put far enough aft that when the reef is in, there is as much outhaul as possible and the main flattened even more. I also use 3/16" line which reduces friction to a minimum.
This system is fast (crew's record is 21 seconds! and everyone can remain safely in the cockpit!

Derek

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2005 : 08:03:53

Here is a thread that has some good pictures and detail on single line reefing on a C250 it could be applied to a C25 also. I have used this system for a year now and have found it to still work as smooth as glass with no cringle problems.
http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7795

Edited by - frog0911 on 10/28/2005 08:08:32

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2005 : 08:12:02

I agree with Derek on this one. Well thought out placement of cheek blocks and pad eyes will allow the sail to be properly tensioned when reefing. I have been using my two-reef, single line system two seasons and am very pleased with my ability to quickly reef the main. I use 1/4" lines led aft to the cockpit and secured by a double rope clutch next to my halyard clutch. With this system I can release the main halyard and tension the reefing line practicaly at the same time. Conversly, I can release the reef and raise the main with the halyard winch with little effort and lost time because they are all in the same location. I have also installed the internal outhaul system offered by Catalina Direct to tension the foot of the sail if needed.

Edited by - aeckhart on 10/28/2005 08:14:20

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2005 : 13:13:47

I removed the original reef line cheek block that came with my boat and replaced it with a movable cheek block on a 3' track. That allowed me to adjust the cheek block to the best position for any reef point.

Edited by - on

Mike Mullen
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2005 : 09:33:52

Hey Flopper,
Your set up looks very neatly done! Is there some reason you do not use reef ties to dress up the excess mainsail along the boom? I raalize you only have a single reef in. Do you also put in a double reef? Does the 2nd reef get tied in

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2005 : 13:38:17

I have never met a sail maker that recommends tying in a reef. All those strings do it stress the grommets and make it so that if your reef falls out for any reason you are pretty much guaranteed to rip your main. Throw them away.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 10/30/2005 : 12:42:59

"I have never met a sail maker that recommends tying in a reef."
This time I can agree with Frank!

My sailmaker says he enjoys watching reef ties used 'cos he knows he will eventually get a sail repair! (On This Side Upwe don't even have reef tie cringles in the main.
Derek

Edited by - on

dave andersen
1st Mate

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85 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2005 : 19:43:37

I'm for two line reefing on the main. I tried single line, then got caught in a Santa Ana. Just try reefing with a single line in 35 knot winds! Far too much friction, I don't care how many cheek blocks you put in, that sail will not come in. Speed of reefing is not the issue. It is reefing under emergency conditions that should be the central issue. Go with two line reefing.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2005 : 20:11:36

In 35 knot winds on a C25 I wouldn't even be TRYING to reef! The main halyard would immediately be blown...then the jib furled and the motor started.
Derek

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2005 : 20:20:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 In 35 knot winds on a C25 I wouldn't even be TRYING to reef! The main halyard would immediately be blown...then the jib furled and the motor started.
Derek
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I don't think I believe you unless TSU recently got an inboard.

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2005 : 21:13:13

Here is another picture of the second reef set up for single line reefing and lead to the cockpit. Works pretty well - have only been in gusts up to 25 kts so far. Two check blocks and pad eyes on boom, two rings and small blocks at the cringles, turning block at base of mast, deck organizer and a rope clutch on cockpit.

Edited by - frankr on 02/21/2006 11:39:47

carstensen
Deckhand

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2 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2006 : 11:25:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 Harken does not address the stack of slugs. And so if you have a standard sail then your reef cringle will try to crush them. This is why may of us have a "jack line", it allows the reef cringle to get to the goose neck without putting pressure on the slugs. Note the small grommets with a thin line running through them and the slug. The slug is not connected to the sail itself.

Edited by - on

carstensen
Deckhand

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2 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2006 : 11:49:19

Frank,

I want to install a similar Jackline as the one you show in the photo.

My mainsail's Luff reef cringle is 48 inches above the tack. If I understand the picture correctly I need to have a sail maker install two grommets about 3 inches apart at the midpoint between the Luff reef point grommet and the tack. I also need to install a third grommet about 12 inches above the tack. This will allow me to run down a thin Jackline tied off at the Luff reef cringle, weaved through the two grommets with a luff slide between and then tied off at the third grommet that is 12 inches above the tack. Apparently there is only on luff slide between the Luff reef cringle and the tack.

Do I have it right?

Thanks,
Carlo

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 I see that Frank recommends double line reefing but I don't know why.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I did a poor job of explaining. If you are in high enough wind to reef you need a flat sail.
In my experience the need to outhaul the reef clew to the absolute maximum requires a lot of tension. The typical clew reef is deadended at an eyestrap on one side of the boom. The reefing line passes up through the reef clew and back down to a cheek block strategically placed to hold the reef cringle tightly to the boom. In order to hold the cringle very tightly to the boom there can be relatively little out haul angle between the eyestrap and the cheek block. If the reef line passes along the boom to the forward end of the boom and is routed to the cabin top the line must go through another cheek block a turning block at the base of the mast and then a deck organizer before getting to the clutch and winch. This route provides a lot of friction and places for line to stretch. Outhauling the reef clew with this minimum line length and friction resulting from turns is the best you can do and it still takes real effort to get it tight. Once the clew is secure you haul the reef tack to the goose neck and it secures easily in place because there is no load on it. (The halyard has been relaxed.) If the line is dead ended at the mast and goes to a turning block at the base of the mast there will be a slight forward pull and it will help the reef foot tension.
However, if you add the task of hauling down the reef tack, the added length of line and associated hardware realities to the single reef clew line you make it too difficult to put in a tight reef. I reef to continue sailing in a high performance mode, other wise I would come in. I expect (well OK actually hope for) a reefed sail to set as well as a non reefed sail. Loosely reefed sails are also prone to damage.
Single line systems my be able to "get it done" but I have never been satisfied with what I have tried and the two line system works well for me every time.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2006 : 15:54:31

Dont forget the grommet above the reef cringle.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2006 : 19:28:09

I have my main in the Sailloft now having a second set of reef points installed. I have a jack line on the first reef. My question is, do I need a second jack line for the second reef? I also bought a mast gate, but have not installed yet.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2006 : 09:24:24

You need to discuss that with the sailmaker.

Edited by - on

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