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Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Loose stays

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Tanglefoot
1st Mate

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USA
76 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/01/2005 : 23:37:52

After purchasing my c25 4 months ago, the owner and I raised the mast. Myself, a " newbie ", did not check everything before he left. My stays are loose, I have screwed the buckles as far as possible and yet they still are loose. One neighboor today suggested that I put a solid piece of material directly under my mast ( step down ) to raise my mast by an inch to an inch and a half, thus tightening the stays. Any comments?

Thanks

Tanglefoot

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2005 : 02:39:45

Mr. Tangle,
Sounds like the shrouds and stays are a mite long. Oh I just re-read your question and saw it is the stays. Is it just the stays or are the shrouds involved wiht the problem too? My rear stay is a bit long, not adjustable. Here is a stupid question. Is your rear stay adjustable. What I did is tied a rope from the stay to the rear pulpit and tightned up ther taking out the slack. Not the mest form of adjustment I know but a couple buck bit of rope satisfies my wife over a multi boat unit piece of equipment. If it is far looser than that or involves the shrouds to trimming them would be the best way to go, I think. But this requires some specialized tools, unless you go with the fittings you do your self. If it were me what I would do is find a rigger to look at it and give a suggestion. Sure you can do it your self and probably save a bundle, but if you are not really sure of what you are doing you could come into problems.
A fellow at our lake had his mast snap inhalf two times by doing his own work, I think he is going to job the next one out.
let us know what you do.

Edited by - MattL on 11/02/2005 02:45:20

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5909 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2005 : 08:09:48

It's possible that your stays are too long, but it's very unlikely. If the previous owner bought new stays and they didn't fit, he would probably have insisted that the supplier make them the correct length.

It's also possible that the deck under the mast is deteriorated and collapsing. It can be repaired, but will take some work. Look at it to see if there is a depression at the base of the mast, and tap on it with a screwdriver handle to see if it sounds dead.

It's very unlikely that your stays have stretched so much that they can't be adjusted. Wire stays stretch, but not that much.

I believe your stays are out of adjustment, and that the problem can be corrected by adjusting them from scratch. To do this, you need to tie a line to each of your halyards, and attach one of them to a bow cleat, and the other to a stern cleat. The halyards will help to hold up the mast while you adjust the remaining stays.

Now, completely remove your headstay turnbuckle barrel, being careful not to lose any parts. Start threading the turnbuckle barrel back on to the screws at both ends, by equal amounts. Stop when you have it threaded on at both ends by two or three threads. Next, do the same thing with the backstay turnbuckle. Now, start alternately tightening your headstay turnbuckle by 10 turns, and then tightening your backstay turnbuckle an equal number of turns, until both the headstay and backstay feel fairly firm, with very little sag. By making that adjustment, you ensure that there is room in each of the turnbuckles to adjust the fore-aft tilt of the mast, as necessary.

Next, completely unscrew the forward lower turnbuckles, and start threading them back on, counting equal numbers of turns on each side, as you did with the headstay and backstay.

Then do the same with the uppers, and then do the same with the aft lowers.

When they are adjusted snugly enough so that they will hold your mast up without the assistance of your halyards, then you need to re-tune your mast. Some of us have written mast-tuning guides, and posted them at various locations on this website. Any of them will help you tune your mast. The following is an excerpt from mine:

Tuning the Rig of a C-25

Mast Tuning 

Before we discuss the processes that should be used in tuning your rig, let’s think about how each stay functions. Each stay has a specific purpose, to provide support from a specific direction, and to prevent the mast from bending in an improper direction or to an excessive extent. If your rig is properly tuned, the tightened backstay will pull the top of the mast aft. The headstay will limit the distance that the top of the mast can tilt or bend aft. The forward lowers will resist the pull of the backstay and prevent the lower part of the mast from moving aft. At the same time, the forward lowers will provide lateral support to the lower portion of the mast, to keep the lower part of the mast from sagging to leeward. The uppers will provide lateral support to the top of the mast, to keep it from sagging off to leeward. As the tension on the backstay adjuster increases, it will exert a downward force on the mast. The mast step and keel will resist the downward force on the mast. Since the mast can't move downward, to release the pressure, the mast will bow in the middle. Because the forward lowers are adjusted snugly, and the aft lowers are adjusted loosely, the lower part of the mast can only bend one way, i.e. forward. As the lower part of the mast bows forward, the aft lowers will become taut, and prevent the mast from bending so far out of column as to damage the mast. In order for the backstay adjuster to work properly, the stays have to be adjusted with differing tensions, so that they allow the mast to bend in the proper direction. If all the upper and lower mast stays are snugged down to more or less the same tension in all directions, when you pull on the backstay adjuster, the mast won’t bend, because the stays will prevent any part of the mast from moving in any direction.

Boat Without Adjustable Backstay 

Begin tuning your rig by alternately tightening the headstay and backstay turnbuckles until the headstay and backstay have little or no sag, but so that they are not bar-tight.

Next, loosen all your lower stays just enough to take the tension off them. Then, tighten the upper stays snugly by an equal number of turns on each side. Next, take your jib halyard, and use it as a measuring device (you might need to tie a piece of line onto it, to lengthen it), to make sure that the distance from the top of your mast to the chainplate for the upper stay on the starboard side of your boat is the same as the distance from the top of your mast to the chainplate for the upper stay on the port side of your boat. If the distance is not equal, adjust your upper stays until the distance is equal on both sides. That will ensure that your mast does not lean more to one side than the other.

Now, adjust your forward lower stays until the slack is just taken out of them. Then continue tightening them, alternately by an equal number of turns, until they are as tight as you can comfortably get them by hand. Then do the same with your aft lowers. Lie down on the coach roof, and sight up the mainsail track, to see if the mast is straight. If so, then use tools to tighten each lower stay a little more, alternately by an equal number of turns, until the tension of the lower stays is snug, and equal all around. Sight up the mast again to be sure it is still straight. If it is not, then make such adjustments to the lower stays as are necessary to make it so.

Tighten the locknuts on all your turnbuckles, including the uppers, lowers, headstay and backstay. With these adjustments, your mast will not be perfectly adjusted, but it should be "in the neighborhood." Sail the boat, and observe whether it has excessive weather helm or lee helm. It will probably have excessive weather helm. If the boat has excessive weather helm, readjust all the stays so that the entire mast is tilted further forward. If the boat has excessive lee helm, readjust all the stays so that the entire mast is tilted further aft. If you do not have an adjustable backstay, you are done.

Boat with Adjustable Backstay 

If you have an adjustable backstay, you have a little more adjustment to do. Make sure that the tension on the backstay adjuster is completely released. Then loosen the turnbuckle on the headstay until the headstay is slack. Next, adjust the aft lowers until they are slack. Then apply strong tension to the backstay adjuster. Adjust the headstay so that the mast tip bends aft about 8-9 inches when the backstay adjuster is tensioned. When the backstay adjuster is eased, the headstay should be quite slack. Adjust the aft lowers so that they become tight when the backstay is tensioned. The way to do that is to apply the maximum tension on the backstay adjuster. Then adjust the aft lowers until they just become taut. When you release the tension on the backstay adjuster, the aft lowers will become slack. When you re-apply the backstay tension, the aft lowers will become taut again. To increase the amount of mast bend, loosen the headstay and the aft lowers, but do not allow your eagerness for speed to cloud your judgment.

Sail the boat again, and observe whether it has excessive weather helm when the backstay adjuster is fully tensioned. If the boat has excessive weather helm, then readjust all the stays so that the entire mast is tilted further forward.

Using a Loos Gauge to Tune the Mast 

I don’t own a Loos gauge, and have never used one to tune my rig. I make sure that the mast is vertical, adjust the stays so that they are generally snug, and adjust the rig to allow the mast to bend within safe parameters, and no more. Then I test-sail the boat after tuning the rig, to see if it is performing to my expectations.

Having said that, I believe that most sailors would benefit from using a Loos gauge. Once you have tuned your rig so that the boat is very fast, a Loos gauge can help you accurately reproduce that same setting, after working on your mast or shrouds, or after lowering and raising the mast.

Derek Crawford is one of the most knowledgeable C-25 racers that I know, and he uses the Loos gauge to tune his rig. With his permission, I am reproducing his recommendations for tuning with a Loos gauge.

I've just re-tuned "This Side Up" for light to moderate air. The Loos gauge reads (just using the FRONT of it - don't bother converting to the back side numbers), aft lowers - 10" of slack (just registers on the gauge), uppers 30, forward lowers 25. The forestay has 10" sag and the backstay a good 6" (when not tensioned). All these are taken with mainsheet, vang and cunningham loose.
The most important parameter of all is to have the mast in column (straight up & down and from side to side) and make doubly sure that the masthead doesn't hook slightly to one side or the other (sight up the mast track to best check this).
With these dialed in you'll be fast to weather and even faster downwind. When the wind kicks up past 15k I put an extra turn on all the shrouds.

End of excerpt

I should clarify one thing. When I talk about adjusting your stays by equal numbers of turns, I don't mean that all of them (uppers, forward lowers and aft lowers) should be tightened by equal numbers of turns. Each pair should be tightened by equal numbers of turns.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 11/02/2005 08:20:05

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2005 : 10:42:14

Hi Jonathan,

Is there any chance that the stays are attached to the wrong points? In other words, if either the forestay or the backstay is attached to the wrong hole in the tang, or if a previous owner added something for another purpose (i.e. NOT for attaching either stay), there would be too much slack ... both stays would be loose.

'Hope that makes sense. If there is only one place to attach either stay, you don't have much choice but to follow Steve's advice (and/or pray that you don't have a soft cabin top).

Good luck ... let us know what you find out.

Edited by - on

Tanglefoot
1st Mate

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USA
76 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2005 : 11:19:37

thanks everyone,

I will check and try each of these applications. I do not think that the cabin is soft, but will check. I will you give a you a progress report manana.

Thanks again.

Edited by - on

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