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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Pintles and Gudgeons

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Randolph G. Wilson
1st Mate

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USA
64 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/19/2005 : 18:30:14

I have a 1983 c25. I am getting vibration at the tiller when close to hull speed from the rudder. My question has to do with the gudgeon. The Catalina catalog shows a reinforced gudgeon with a Delrin bearing. Will the repalcement of the gudgeeon eliminate the vibration? Second question: My gudgeons seem to be attached with Phillips head screws. From the access panel at the transom, the thread portion appears to be embedded in fiberglas, i.e., the gudgeons are not bolted in but screwed in. Is it possible that I can remove the old gudgeons by unscrewing the screws, replace the gudgeon and refastening with the phillips head screws? A long winded question.

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2005 : 22:30:53

Randolph,

That is the prescribed method. I have gone a step further and through-bolted my gudgeons to the transom with a large 1/4" thick aluminum backing plate.

The vibration may not be the result of worn gudgeons and pintles but is a symptom. Before I added the balanced rudder my old rudder vibrated at or neaar hull speed as well. I no longer have the problem. Depending on the age of your boat and the condition of the pintles and gudgeons, you may want to replace them with the new gasketed model from CD anyway. Mine are due to be changed again after about five years on the second set.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2005 : 18:18:50

"the gudgeons are not bolted in but screwed in."

Indeed, There's a plate with threaded holes embedded in the transom fiberglass. Technically, the original fasteners are called 'machine screws'... which is basically a small bolt with a phillips or blade screwdriver-compatible head.

What AL recommends is even better, Install an access plate in the back of the cockpit and through-drill the holes... bolt (or machine screw) the gudgeons in place with proper backing. Lots stronger than depending on the very limited threads in that plate.

Other folks go one step beyond the above and go up to 5/16" or 3/8" fasteners.

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jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2005 : 14:28:05

Randolph,

Run, do not walk, to buy replacement bolts (not machine screws) and thru-bolt your gudgeons, both top and bottom...uh, that is if you want your rudder to stay on.

With very little stress the suckers will back out, shear, fall out, etc. With a little more stress (say the kind I get every day on SF Bay) your gudgeons could fall off! I lost two upper screws and one lower sheared off before I realized what was causing the excessive play in the rudder.

Then after thru-bolting (with a substantial backing plate) one of the lower 5/16 bolts broke right where the thread stops and the shoulder begins. Now I have 3/8 bolts with long shoulders and I installed a third gudgeon just above the water line.

I hate it when your rudder falls off. (Once mine broke off at the water line.)

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2978
SF Bay

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deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2005 : 21:30:47

Jim Williams is right: this is an URGENT C25 fix for older C25's in particular. I, too, learned that the hard way, raising sail to sail out of Gloucester (Mass.) harbor ahead of a storm. The upper gidgeon came completely out of the transom, and one screw of the lower came loose. I returned to port, cut a 4"hole in the inner lining of the transom, and through-bolted the upper gudgeon with locknuts. The lower is accessible from the quarter berth. The inspection hatch (a Beckson plate) allows me to recheck the bolts every three months, more often if I cover greater distcances or am caught out in heavy weather. BTW, this happened the year "The Perfect Storm" Came out, and I spent my time in port seeing the movie in a Gloucester movie theater. Every cloud has a (tarnished?) silver lining.

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John P
Captain

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USA
324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2005 : 08:54:20

Def an item on my "To-Do" list this winter.

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2005 : 11:11:29

Hi All, This is first on my list to fix this winter. Where in the trans do I cut the access hole? Also, if the Pintles look good, do they need to be replaced to match the new style bushed Gudgeons? Cheers.

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jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/23/2005 : 01:04:31

DJN-

"Where in the trans do I cut the access hole?"
Eyeball where you imagine the forward (front is front, the bow direction) is and prepare to install a Beckson(SP?) access plate. I think mine is a 4 inch. I cut the hole with a Dremel tool. Drill all the way through the transom to install the bolts.

"Also, if the Pintles look good, do they need to be replaced to match the new style bushed Gudgeons?"
I am not sure about the Catalina reinforced gudgeons. On Hey Jude I had my local machinist drill the gudgeon holes out and install bronze bushings, then redrill the holes for 1/2in. He said he used valve guide oilite bronze and they should last until I'm dead. Since the bushings are deeper than the original thickness of the gudgeon, the grove worn on the pintles is covered by the new bushings, i.e. there is more surface for the pintles to mate to, thereby eliminating the play that was there with the pre-bushed gudgeon...that's the point, right? The reworked gudgeons cost $40.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
SF Bay

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 11/23/2005 : 08:31:48

Jim, that's a great idea about turning down a bronze valve guide to use as a gudgeon bushing!

To determine where to cut the hole in the aft wall of the cockpit for the upper gudgeon access cover, I ran a really long drill bit through the middle upper gudgeon mounting hole in the transom and drilled through the aft wall of the cockpit. I then used that hole to line up the new gudgeon up on aft wall of the cockpit. I then decided where to locate the Beckson plate so as to give me the best access to the gudgeon retaining nuts.

-- Leon Sisson

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Randolph G. Wilson
1st Mate

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USA
64 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2005 : 17:39:39

Thanks to all for your replies. Sounds like I have more work ahead of me than I anticipated. Will try to wait until I have the boat on the hard.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2005 : 18:45:57

Actually this is not hard work and the lower gudgeon is out of the water. Order the parts do it with a buddy.

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.