Association Forum - Catalina 25 vs. Hunter 25

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Catalina 25 vs. Hunter 25

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

raulpou
Navigator

Member Avatar

144 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/22/2005 : 23:48:14

I know the title may be vague but I am a newbie looking for some information. Basically I cannot make up my mind between the new 2006 Hunter 25 and the catalina. I understand that the opinions may be a little biased but please help me with your opinion on which way to go as well as what to look for between the two. I am basically going to use this boat for weekends with my wife and not very rough seas.

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2005 : 00:37:29

Which Catalina? Catalina 25 (in production until mid-90's I think), Catalina 250 Water Ballast or Catalina 250 wing keel?

Edited by - on

bill bosworth
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2005 : 07:50:22

I guess I am biased, but, I have looked at the new Hunter 25, looked at its specifications, and wonder, what were they thinking? The boat has a shallow keel, the kind tried years ago on several trailerable sail boats. To my knowledge these boats sailed sideways as well as forwards. The interior looks like a cheap imitation of the Catalina 250.
On the positive side, we have sailed our c250wb for the past 6 years. We are very happy with this boat and congratulate ourselves on our decision to buy it every time we sail. If we come across the money to buy a new boat it will likely be a new Catalina 250. I should say that we live on a large inland lake in North Carolina. We keep the boat at a dock behind our home, and store the boat at our home during the winter. The simple systems and ability to do our own launching and mast raising were one of the reasons for our purchase decision. Of the three other fin keel sailboats that we have oned; this one is my wifes favorite. It is very easy to sail. We very much like the easy sail handling, with a 110 you can always tack without cranking the jib winch.
On the negative side, if you want to do extensive blue water crusing, this is not the boat. It was not designed for it and can be overpowered in winds much over 20mph. That's not to say that it can't be sailed in high winds, we love to do so, but when it gets very windy, it is not as easily handled some.
Sorry to use up so much space, but we are fans!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2005 : 09:04:33

A search of the forum turned up the following two recent comparisons of the Catalina 250 vs. the Hunter 25. These might give you some food for thought. Look for the comments made by Rockhound76 in the second discussion. He was not a Catalina owner, but was also considering the two boats, and his comments seem to be well-informed.

Some people commented that the C250 isn't a good heavy-air boat. I've sailed both the C25 and the C250 on an inland lake, and believe they're both good up to 25-30 on an inland lake. But, wind over 30 is a lot for any boat to take, but especially for a small, lightweight, trailerable sailboat. Last year I moved up to a 14,000#, 35' boat on the Chesapeake, and can tell you that beating to windward in 30 kt wind is no picnic on it either. At one time, in 30-35 kt. wind, I couldn't get it to tack across the wind, and had to "wear ship" to get it onto the other tack. I know some people have taken 25' boats of all kinds out in big winds and seas, and they acquit themselves well, but I think it's better judgment to find shelter when the going gets really rough.

One other thing...Hunter doesn't have a website like this one, and they don't have Arlyn Stewart.

http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10421& SearchTerms=Hunter

http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9929& SearchTerms=Hunter

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2005 : 09:33:37

Steve, what does the term "wear ship" mean?
Thanks,

Edited by - on

raulpou
Navigator

Members Avatar

144 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2005 : 09:46:11

Thank you everyone for your responses. I also had a question about the stubby lead keel from the Hunter. I guess I won't know until I sail one!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2005 : 10:08:30

Webster's defines "Wear ship" as bringing a ship about by putting up the helm...to come about by turning the stern to the wind. It's a term that originated in the days of the square riggers. They were slow and couldn't point to windward very well, and, in high winds and big seas, they often couldn't get the bow of the boat to come across the wind when they wanted to tack. So what they would do is turn downwind, and then jibe, and then steer up to windward on the opposite tack, and then trim the sails to sail to windward on the new tack.

My boat has good speed and points well, but I was singlehanding it, and wasn't as efficient handling the sails as if I had crew, and the boat was a handfull in those conditions. After three unsuccessful tries at tacking, I was getting closer to a lee shore than I wanted, so I wore ship to get onto a tack that would take her offshore.

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2005 : 10:31:23

Thanks, Steve. We've done that a few times at Cheney, but didn't know that term.
By the way - the Landfall series are beautiful boats. Wish they would "fit" our lake.

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2005 : 10:52:10

I shopped for a boat this summer. Because my wife is claustraphobic, and we want to stay on the boat, the choices narrowed quickly to either a C250 (WK or WB) or the new Hunter 25. Over the course of the summer we sailed a C25, a C250 WK and a new H25. Here are my thoughts, for what they are worth to you.

First, overall, there was only one single point that we could find to like about the H25 over the others, and than was the swim platform on the back. This made it very easy to get aboard from the dock. Both the 250s and the H25 have high freeboard, and are a challenge (compared to other boats, such as the C25) to board from the docks where we sail. The H25 swim platform made boarding easy, and the open transom is not blocked by the swim ladder as the C250 is. You can argue the merits of the H25 folded ladder, but from our point of view, the H25 is better on this one point.

Making the score 1 to 100+ in favor of C250s and C25. Here is the rest of what we saw. Every person buys a boat for different reasons, so others will see these differently. Here is the calculus for us. And we are very new boat owners, I bought a C250WK new, 2 months ago, and just took delivery last week, have not sailed it yet. So you are getter purely "prepurchase" information from me, but it is very fresh in my mind.

First, here is the conditions we managed to sail in, and our experiences:

** C25 fin and swing keel (2 different boats) - Over two days, every condition from calm to 20 knot winds with 1 reef, 4' swells, Puget Sound.

What a sweet boat. This is the experience that made me decide to start sailing. There is just nothing bad I can say about the sailing qualities of these wonderful boats. They are stiff, point well, the cockpit is comfortable. In very light air, not as good a performer at the others being compared, but overall, a sweet boat.

** New H25 - Two hour test sail, 20 knot winds with 1 reef, 2' swells, Columbia River.

The boat was badly overpowered in these conditions. It was like sailing a dinghy in a strong wind (I am a former Coronado 15 sailor). Even with one reef, we were managing the main sail frequently to keep from being heeled too far. You know, sail for 30 seconds, pop the main sheet, recover, sail for another 30 seconds, pop the main again, repeat...

The leeway was not as bad as I expected. It made some, but all boats do. I sailed a Mac 26M earlier in the summer - now THAT was leeway. In my analysis, the leeway from the shoal keel was not a negative, and I was doing my best to watch for it. I have only 2 years sailing experience racing dinghies, so maybe something was going on that I did not see, but we made progress to windward just fine, and using two points on shore (one behind the other) I was able monitor the leeway pretty carefully.

What I really disliked was the helm on this boat. Even with it blowing like stink, when we tacked, the helm would be stalled by the time we got around to the new tack, and we had lost a considerable amount of way. It reminded me of a catamaran. At the time, I thought I was just not used to sailing a boat with a wheel, but later I sailed a C28 and found that it was not the wheel, it was the H25.

So, bottom line - it did not handle a moderate amount of wind very well, and did not handle well period, from my point of view.

** C250 wing keel, zero to 10 knots of wind, highly variable, no reef, no swell

I would have been nice to sail this boat in equivalent conditions to the others, but I could not make it happen. So in the end, I used comments from Arlyn's web site about his experiences with a C250 WB in heavier winds (http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/cruising.html) to supplement my actual experiences.

So, sailing the 250WK in lighter air, again, what a sweet boat. We smoked just about every other boat on the water in terms of performance, which is a C250 characteristic in light air I am told. (No, there were no J boats around, just cruisers up to about 30'.) The helm was great, the sails were easy to handle, the cockpit was comfortable. This was a tiller boat, which I prefer anyway, and the handling was excellent. (All you wheel guys, relax, wheels are cool too, to each his own.)

Read Arlyn's stuff for how it behaves in heavier air. From reading many threads on this site, I gather that the 250 is less stiff than the C25, reefs earlier, and has a second reef point in the sail (which the H25 did not) because it needs it, but that it does well if properly reefed. I also gather that water ballast heels faster initially, but then is quite stiff at about 20 degrees of heel, where the wing keel is stiffer initially, but in the end is essentially equivalent to the water ballast. (The differences between WB and WK are the subject of much debate on this site, and I am not trying to restart that, just reporting one man's thought process when purchasing a boat.)

More in next message about the rest of the characteristics of the boats, and why I selected a C250WK for my particular needs.

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2005 : 11:52:50

This is a continuation of the previous message.

Here are the other main points that caused me to select a C250 over an H25:

First, I had decided not to buy a water ballast boat, because I did not like the tendency to heel quickly initially (until enough water is lifted to counterbalance). This is a personal preference, many many other folks like WB boats (both Catalina and Hunter, even MacGregor) just fine.

Second, I wanted a trailerable boat. If I lived in Seattle, I would have a C25 right now. My wife would not like the interior, but she would get over it ;-) (I hope). But I live in Portland, and that is tantalizingly close to some great sailing in Puget Sound and the Strait of Georgia, and I want access to that.

Third, I decided to buy a new boat, because I am very new to keelboats, and I wanted dealer support during the initial months of ownership, as well as the confidence of knowing that I was not buying something with a fatal flaw that I was too inexperienced to see. I know, I'm a wimp, I should of bought used and save the money. But I love the smell of new fibreglass in the morning... :-)

The above narrowed my choices to the H25 and C250WK. Here, from my notes, are what I think the major points were for me:

- web site/owner organization

Strange to you that this is first maybe, but it was very important to me. The C25/250/Capri25 owners organization is very active, and this site is very active. I have asked countless questions (sorry guys) and gotten a LOT of really useful help. For example, I needed to buy a gas tank for my boat. From this site, I learned the exact brand and sources for that brand that would give me a six gallon tank that fits like it was made for the boat (Tempo Valu 6 from many sources, Defender, West Marine, etc.). If I had not had access to that, the motor dealer was trying to tell me that I would only be able to get a 3 1/2 gallon tank in that space.

There is hunterowners.com, but it is pale, pale echo of this vibrant organization site.

- Performance

See previous message. For me, the Catalina was a better choice.

- Structure, how "well built"

I looked carefully at both boats. The H25 seems cheap to me. Better than a Mac26M, but still, clearly a boat where care has been taken to reduce manufacturing cost in the performance area. Strangely (to me), Hunter seems more willing to put money in appearance than substance. Examples: The H25 has more teak, looks nicer. The cushions are cushier. The fabric patterns are nicer. But the winches and hardware are cheap stuff compared to Catalina, which has really nice hardware, self-tailing winches, etc.

The H25 has no backstay, which I am not really comfortable with. It means no backstay to interfere with boarding etc., but it is not as strong a rig either in my opinion. Hunter does not have backstays even on their larger boats, so maybe I am just not modern enough.

So, H25 - more teak, C250 - better winches and hardware. C250 wins this one hands down for me. I would rather sail than polish teak.

- Interior layout

The H25, which just went into production in 2005, is clearly a copy of the C250. Well, they didn't get it completely right. The C250 stairway swings up, giving you complete access to the aft berth. The H25 is fixed. I am 6' 4" tall. I can sleep fore to aft in the C250 aft berth, rather than athwartships, and cannot do so in the H25. This is a big deal. If one person needs to get up in the middle of the night without disturbing the other, this can be done in a C250, and cannot be done in an H25.

The stupidest thing about the H25, in my arrogant opinion, is the ridge with teak edge that they put between the forward berths and the settees on each side. This ridge means that a tall person like me cannot sleep in the forward berth with legs on the settee. Dumb. If I had an H25, I would want to remove this, but some folks said it might be structural...

To the H25's credit, they have a skylight port over your head in the after berth if you are sleeping atwhartships, that is nice.

The H25 *may* have a better table, the salesman was not sure if the table in the boat I sailed was stock or an owner add-on. Many C250 owners toss their cockpit tables and start over...

The C250 comes with a pop top giving you standing headroom in the galley area. The H25 does not come with this, but you can have such a thing made.

Oh, one other point. The C250WK has 5" more headroom than a WB I am told. I have never been in a WB, but that may be a plus for the H25 if you are considering a WB boat. The H25 headroom is equivalent to the C250.

- Trailerability

The C250WB and H25 would be equivalently easy to trailer, launch and recover in my opinion. The H25 would be a heavier tow, perhaps requiring more of a tow vehicle. The H25 and C250WK are equivalent in weight if I recall correctly, about 6200 lbs all up trailer and boat. The WB would be 1200 lbs (?) less than that, I think.

The C250WK is taller, and more difficult to launch than either of the others. You need to use a tongue extension to get the WK into the water (or a rope). I will be launching my boat for the first time this morning, I'll tell you how hard I think it is tonight.

All of these boats (except the C25) come with good mast raising systems and trailer equipment that make it equivalently easier to raise and lower the mast.

- Outboard mount

Here is where the H25 swim platform becomes a problem. The outboard has to mount to the platform, which makes it VERY low and far away from the cockpit. Some sort of remote steering link between the tiller and outboard would be *required* in this boat in my opinion, and it does not come with such. You should have seen the salesman trying to dock. The outboard slipped, got turned without us doing anything, and he had to leap down to the platform, manhandle the motor straight again, and then leap back up into the cockpit. What a pain.

The standard C250 mounts the motor on the transom, but its movement is restricted by the cockpit coaming and the fuel tank enclosure. I bought an optional bracket from Catalina that moves the outboard away from the transom, but still keeps it at cockpit level. This puts it in a really nice position to be handled while seated in the cockpit. You could also use a link to the rudder in this situation as well, and many do. Oh, downside to either C250 mount is you must have an extra long shaft outboard. I think you could get away with a long shaft on the H25.

- Price

So for me, the C250WK won in all categories except teak and the swim platform. It will be harder to launch and recover, but not that much harder, and I plan to keep my boat in a slip much of the time, so quick setup and teardown is not quite as big a deal for me.

On price, the C250WK, equipped as I wanted it, was $6,000 lower in cost than the H25. Since the boats are similar in cost, with Catalina's basic list price actually being higher, how can this be?

Three differences. First, freight. Until this year, the C250s were made in Woodland Hills, California, and the H25s in Florida. So there HAS to be a $3000 delta in freight costs for a west coast buyer. This goes away in the coming years, because production of C250s is being moved to Florida.

Second, options. Hunter has a lower basic boat price, but many things that are standard on a C250 are options on a Hunter. On my C250WK, I ordered only 4 options: 135 genoa, teak and holly cabin sole, canvas package (sail covers etc.) and an outboard bracket to move the outboard out away from the transom. I would have had to order about 12 options to get the H25 the way I wanted (equivalent).

Third, dealer difference. This won't apply to you, but my local Hunter dealer was trying to charge $3000 for "commissioning", where my Catalina dealer suggested I could do this myself under his supervision, and he would not charge me for commissioning. In the end, this cost me about 16 hours of my labor, so you can value your own time however you like. Also, other folks on the site have said that this dealer's approach is very unusual, that commissioning is always charged for, either as a flat (approximately) $500 fee, or something like $50 per hour, which would come out the same for someone who does it all the time, in my opinion.

Hope all that helps you. Gotta go launch the boat! In the coming months and years I will learn whether I made the right decision or not. But having the boat in my posession, looking it over, I am very happy so far.

Edited by - on

kgl
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2005 : 17:22:46

Having owned Macs, Catalina, and a Hunter 26, IMHO the new Hunter 25 has not been received well and the keel is not what I would want on a new boat for that kind of money. The C250 is a much better buy and should sail better then the H25. They use the same hull from the old H240.
I know the folks on the Hunter site were very disappointed that Hunter quit making the Water Ballast Boats and were not impressed with the H25.

ken

Edited by - on

kgl
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2005 : 17:22:54

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2005 : 20:28:28

Kevin, great review of the boats, very informative. Hope your first launch went well, did you carry a bottle of champagne to break over the bow?

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2005 : 00:13:57

Re: Champagne and Launch

We are saving the champagne (gotta find a bottle that won't break the boat) for when the bottom paint is done and the mast is raised again...

The launch was very easy, must less exciting than I imagined. It is just like a bigger (longer) trailer. However, I did learn three things:

Thing #1: I need to do some calculations, and determine how steep the ramp needs to be to get the boat floating before rear axle goes under water. Today, my rear bumper actually went in the water (and I could hear the gurgle of the exhaust) before the boat floated. It is marginally OK to do this in fresh water (not really, but let me have my illusions) but I would never want to do this in salt water. So I need to be able to predict if the ramp is steep enough or not.

Thing #2: I need to implement the rope launch and spare tire/3rd wheel method described in the tech tips (except without the winch). That looks like the best way to go for a wing keel to me.

Thing #3: The most important equipment to install for a successful launch of a brand new boat with an incompetent skipper is an agile 19 year old boy. After the launch was complete, I and my installed 19 year old pushed away from the dock with the motor in very slow reverse. All was going very well for about 15 seconds, and then the motor quit. The skipper (me) forgot that you can't restart an electric start motor with it in gear. I kept pushing the start button, but nothing happened, as we drifted toward a dock directly aft of us. The 19 year old lept over the rear rail and hung out over the transom to fend the boat off the dock with his foot. Then we started to turn sideways, threatening to hit the dock again. The 19 year old lept off the boat onto the dock, fended us off, then ran pell mell down the finger, hung a left, and back up the next finger, to fend us off again. I am not sure he made that one, it might have been a tie, but the collision was light. NOW I figure out what is wrong, get the motor out of gear and in the right throttle position. It turns over and starts immediately. My 19 year old savior, a bit out of breath, jumps on the boat and we motor sedately away. ("All part of the plan everyone, just giving the crew a little exercise...") The 5 minute (at 1 knot) motor to the drydock as a suitable first voyage for our now experienced crew...

So, bottom line, launching is no big deal at all. Outboards, on the other hand, require study... ;-)

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1009 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2005 : 06:28:08

I use my launching wheel and a big tow strap nearly every time. My solution for the launching wheel is simple. I purchased a 6 inch stub axle and u-bolted it to the tounge. It allows the front of the trailer to drop a few inches which helps my boat float easier. It also allows me to carry a complete spare hub.

Congrats, Tom.

Edited by - atgep on 12/24/2005 06:29:14

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.