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C250 Limitations

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Capt. Kurt
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185 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/18/2006 : 14:55:05

What exactly limits the C250 to coastal cruising? For those who have cruised on the C250, how far from the coast is advised in good weather.

Also, just curious have any of you been caught in a high force ocean storm? (and lived to tell about it)

Kurt
#818 C250WK 'Tortuga'

Edited by - on

s3tbuell
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 01/18/2006 : 16:37:45

I asked this very thing back in 11-05 you may want to lok it up....but I sure hope more people reply...but I will be finding out this summer....the oregon coast can be a tricky place to sail

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atgep
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Response Posted - 01/18/2006 : 18:37:13

People have sailed canoes across oceans. And....megayachts have sunk at the pier.

Sailing is about managing risk. For us the majority of our safety comes from being able to get to shore. Once that option is gone because you are too far away, the sea will likely be calmer because the water is deeper.

Your boat will likely survive much more than you are willing to put up with. The term coastal cruising has some limitations ie wave height winds distance from shore etc. These are just guidelines and should be taken with a grain of salt.

It is my opinion that it is ok to push if you are ready to deal with the posible outcome. I/e survival suits/ communication device/ etc. I would NOT venture outside of helicopter range(100nm) without a real life raft and epirb.

Also, big, breaking waves are bad.

Tom.

Edited by - on

atgep
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Response Posted - 01/18/2006 : 18:42:53

Here is a link:

http://www.catalinayachts.com/certif.cfm

Tom.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/18/2006 : 20:42:06

The difference between a coastal cruiser and a bluewater cruiser is in the design and construction. A bluewater cruiser is ruggedly built so that the hull, decks, windows and hatches can withstand many days of pounding by breaking waves. The chainplates that hold the mast up are heavily reinforced, the pintles and gudgeons by which the rudder is attached are extra sturdy. The hardware on a coastal cruiser is lightweight, adequate for its limited purposes and economical. The hardware on a bluewater boat is, if anything, overbuilt, and designed to last a long time in severe service, and it's expensive. In short, a bluewater cruiser can take more of a beating, longer than a coastal cruiser. You can use a coastal cruiser for bluewater sailing, and, if you're lucky, it might get through without serious damage, but most people believe it's a bad gamble.

That's not to say that you can't sail a C250 or C25 across 70-80 miles of open sea, from Miami to the Bahamas, for example. It's done all the time. Just check the weather carefully, and make sure you go when you have a fair weather window. Mild weather 50 miles offshore is no harder on the boat than mild weather one mile offshore. Even if you get caught out in a bad storm, there are things you can do to help the boat get through it without serious damage.

You wouldn't use a Honda Civic to tow a C250 and trailer, because the car isn't up to the task. A C250 is well designed and built for coastal cruising, but not for bluewater cruising.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/18/2006 20:49:42

Dick Dyer
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Response Posted - 01/18/2006 : 20:44:07

Part of the equation is how much "privation" you are willing to accept. Some people climb mountains unassisted, while others aren't comfortable getting out of an RV; some don't want to leave the hotel. I've gone offshore in 27 foot sailboats, and 52 foot motoryachts, and the latter is definitely a more pleasant cruise (for me). I personally would not take a 250 offshore in the North Pacific for a couple of reasons. First the swell height can be a significant part of the mast height so you are overpowered at the top and becalmed at the bottom; since this is happening every 10-12 seconds, that can be a very tiring ride. Second (and this is personal preference) it would never go offshore in an outboard boat (sail or power).

Having said all that I recall years ago reading about someone sailing transatlantic in a West Wight Potter. So, if you go, be prepared and pick a careful weather window.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 01/18/2006 : 23:33:57

I've cruised about 2500 miles on the Great Lakes and have left safe harbors on a number of occassions in winds between 20-25 knots for passages of 25-100 miles. A rule of thumb on the Great Lakes is a foot of seas for every five knots of wind. The seas there are short and steep however compared to saltwater.

My wind limit is 25 knots... and I've only excepted that rule once to motor four miles across an open bay with about 60 miles of fetch and a 25-35 knot wind blowing into the bay. The short steep seas were around 8 feet as they stacked into the shallowing bay...and it was quite interesting. I knew the risk, that if the motor failed, I was in deep trouble but the motor had given many hours without one hiccup and the relatively short passage across the bay opened the way to a whole days worth of passaging protected channels. We were three days away from the truck and trailer and had only one weather day to burn in returning in order to get my crew to airport and back to California and the remaining two days offered some significantly more open waters.

My reason for sharing here is that the 250 has as Steve points out, limitations. First, if the motor had failed, I wasn't sure I could get the main up...even though I had preset it to a double reef. It really takes getting the boat onto the wind to effectively hoist the main in high winds and if the motor had failed, I was somewhat doubtful of bringing the boat onto the wind enough.

Second, if the motor quit, I'd determined more likely that the headsail could be set which is very easy to do with the furler but I wasn't positive that it would fetch the necessary 90 degree course off the wind to reach the destination channel accross the bay, though if I could make three miles, the last mile was protected from the fetch a little and would be considerably easier to sail and even tack if necessary. And, if I could bring the boat up enough under headsail, maybe then it would be possible to get the main up. But... 35 knots is way too much for even the double reefed main and headsail... though I believe she would have handled 35 knots if brought well into the wind on a double reefed main.

If not, two choices remained in dealing with the lee shore, getting anchors down when the bottom came within ground tackle depth or beaching on a rocky shoreline with 8 foot of swell and losing the boat. Both anchors were prepared for quick and easy release...but even so, they would be a long shot if that point were reached.

Did I exceed reasonable judgement? I think so... I thought so then and still do. As a captain with crew... I put the boat and crew in jeapordy of a lee shore in gale winds, something every sailor is warned not to do. Had the motor failed, I was unsure of clawing away from the lee shore and keeping the boat from faltering.

While I appreciate that many mariners that rely and risk their safety on an auxilliary sometimes very often... I doubt that most sailors consider doing so as reasonable. Why then when a day to burn existed did I choose to risk? The answer for me was that I knew that I'd have no problem with the passage as long as the outboard didn't quit... and it had never given me cause to doubt it and infact had proven over time that it was reliable.

Reliable enough not to have a double reef preset...no. To not have the headsail ready to deploy...no. To not have two anchors prepared for easy deployment... no and so goes a little of the nature of cruising.

The experience of that passage has affected my actions... I will endeavor to not be caught in a cruising situation again where time plays a part in the decision for a passage. Others have said this often... I guess most of us have to learn at least some things for ourselves.

The following year, I chose to abandon the cruise plan when faced with 25 knots and building and we holed up in a protected lee for two days while a gale blew at 35 knots on the open water. We did set out when it reduced to 25 again on its way back down and it made one wild 65 mile passage requiring me to helm for 12 hours without a break in five foot seas under half of the 110 jib. Well rested, I loved every second of it, but was exhausted near the end. It was off wind sailing and required carefull anticipatory helming to keep the boat from broaching. The crew was inexperienced and conditions exceeded Otto's or her abilities to handle the high torque required at the helm.

Again, experience taught a lesson and I designed the open cable steering linkage which eliminated the need for strong arming the helm. The following year, the helm was a peace of cake and the crew, now my bride could handle the helm in any conditions.

Cruising is about many things, and getting the boat into proper form is a part. Not exactly an answer to your question but I enjoyed the digression and I hope you did as well. One of the great joys of cruising is listening to others cruising stories.

Edited by - on

Capt. Kurt
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Response Posted - 01/19/2006 : 01:00:08

Thanks for the informative reply's, really answered my question.

Arlyn, I can see how you made the decision to venture out in those conditions given the factors you mentioned. I'm curious if the crew had part in making the decision, or if keeping them from the risk was needed to prevent panic (and possible mutiny :P). I've read that many boats are lost trying to run with a storm and that the odds improve if you hove-to and wait it out, with the C250's high freeboard would you agree with that strategy?

I was caught in 30+ winds during a monsoon last summer, and I must say it was a scary experience for a novice sailor and have been reading up on how to deal with such conditions. On that occasion I instinctively ran with the wind to get back to the sheltered marina, but in retrospect may have been better off hoving to for an hour to wait out the squal. Monsoons blow in with a vengence, but tend to taper off in an hour or two. While running I was at hull speed with just the wind in the rigging (no sails), and I had to fight to keep her from broaching. Things improved when I turned on the motor at low speed which somehow provided a little better steerage. I also found that the high freeboard caused excessive heel (35+ deg) when perpendicular to the wind when we were pulling down the sails. (these figures are my best estimates since I dont have a wind speed indicator onboard) I must say that experiencing those conditions gave me greater appreciation (and respect) of the power of wind and waves.

Thanks
Kurt

#818 C250WK 'Tortuga'

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/19/2006 : 12:08:49

Arlyn's post makes a point that deserves emphasis. In fair weather, every option is available to you. You can either sail or motor in any direction. You can use either or both sails. You can go through a channel into a marina or sheltered cove, or you can anchor out. As weather conditions deteriorate, you begin to lose some of those options - they become unworkable. You can no longer raise the mainsail or jib, or tuck in a reef or just drop the anchor and stay offshore overnight. The outboard motor might cavitate, so that even motoring might be unworkable. You might encounter breaking waves that prevent you from entering a channel. You might not be able to sail or motor in the direction that you want. As the wind increases in speed and the waves increase in size and take on a steeper shape, you have increasingly fewer options. If the weather conditions become severe enough, you could even run out of options, in which case you're at the mercy of the weather. If his engine quit, Arlyn might not have been able to raise sails and get to his destination under sail, or to claw off a lee shore, or to drop an anchor. He might have had to go into survival mode, doing whatever he could to stave off disaster, and hope the conditions would abate before he ran out of sea room.

I think Arlyn's wind limit of 25 kts. is right on target. You might be able to safely sail or motor in slightly higher winds, depending on all the conditions, but, above that speed, if the conditions deteriorate even slightly, you can run out of options very quickly.

If you buy a boat that's built and rigged for serious offshore sailing, you won't run out of options as quickly. It will be less likely to suffer debilitating damage. A boat with a powerful diesel inboard engine and a big prop will drive the boat better, and won't be so likely to cavitate in choppy seas like an outboard engine, and that increases your options. A bigger, heavier boat with a longer keel can stand up to rougher seas, and that increases your options. Better ground tackle, and stronger rigging and hardware, and more sail and reefing choices increase your options. Having crew gives you more options than if you're singlehanding the boat. If you have crew, you have a better chance of being able to raise or reef sails and keep the boat sailing. Wearing a safety harness and having the boat rigged with a jackline preserves the option for you to safely go to the foredeck to handle the sails, if necessary.

The difference between 25 and 30 kts. is amazing. At 25, you might be having an exhilarating sail, with the boat under perfect control, and, if the wind increases to 30, your control becomes marginal, whether you're under sail or under power, even on big boats with diesel engines. When you're trying to decide whether to sail or stay at the dock, consider all the factors, including the design and construction of your boat as well as your own experience, and don't underestimate the importance of that 5 kt. difference in windspeed.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 01/19/2006 : 14:08:16

On my first Gulf of Mexico crossing (from Key West to Texas)on a 50' catamaran we were overtaken by a tropical storm. I was most thankful at the time that the manufacturer (Prout) had never lost a boat in rough weather! I sure would have hated to have been in a smaller boat...
Derek

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 01/20/2006 : 11:54:55

Kurt,

Your question frames an important captain task... consideration for the safety and emotional comfort of the crew.

I think captains come in two varieties... those who are patient, methodical and deliberate and those who aren't yet so but will become that way if they intend to stay with sailing. The former will have little trouble aiding the crew in gaining confidence on the water and the latter may at times be challenged.

Expanding on the story above, my crew that year was a friend who shared adventure and in fact took some sailing lessons to prepare for the North Channel cruise. I knew that she had previously parasailed, scuba dived and snow skied so was adventuress and comfortable both outdoors and in the water. She had demonstrated very quickly a comfortable relationship to the boat and ability to follow instructions without hesitation.

After watching beaver enjoy their evening meal, we had spend the night at anchor on a beautiful small isolated Ontario lake. Mill Lake lies on the eastern end of Collins Inlet, which itself is a rare piece of nature, an inlet many miles long and often narrow with high steep colorful rock sides. I'd listened to the Canadian weather service report of strong south winds and knew the bay between Collins Inlet and Kallarney would get the brunt of the long Georgian Bay fetch.

We'd discussed the options and that crossing the bay would be very rough... and well beyond what my crew had yet experienced on the cruise. Importantly, I refreshed her memory about sailboat dynamics and heeling so she wouldn't be surprised.

The day was both blustery and rainy but traversing Collins inlet had been enjoyable as it lies east to west so was sheltered from the south wind. We'd been treated to an unusual encounter with a white tailed deer. Rather than spooking as we approached, it watched us pass close by and then entered the inlet and followed...still swimming our direction when losing sight.

Arriving the western end of the inlet, the channel looked foreboding because of the spray driven airborne by the surf off the rocks guarding both sides of the entrance. With the strong south wind, I hugged the south marker, which of course yielded us to a good dousing of spray causing the crew to ask why I hadn't stayed in the middle. I replied, "because of those rocks over there as I pointed to the north side...that is where the wind wishes us to go." She replied, "oh,... got it".

Outside... the boat was pitched more than ever experienced and the crew asked if she was needed and if not she would go below to get out of the rain and high wind. "One moment", I suggested. Glancing back at the channel we had just departed it was obvious we were committed, it wouldn't be wise to re-enter and possibly have swell surf the boat onto rocks, so giving a warning (shrugged off) about getting seasick below, and an added warning to brace carefully, she went below and got out of her foulies.

In eight foot of swell and the driving rain, I couldn't begin to see the four miles across the bay and relied fully on both the gps arrow to to the Killarney channel and more importantly the cross track error so as to stay on the rhumb line between the channels and not allow leeway to drift us north into the bay.

Arriving the Killarney channel, we stopped first at a channel side store where a dock hand looking puzzled, asked if we had come from out there as he pointed down the channel to the bay. I replied, "yes", to which he simply said, "that must have been interesting, the fishermen didn't go out today, and they rarely don't go."

A short way farther westward in the channel between Ontario and George Island, we pulled alongside Heberts school bus kitchen for fresh whitefish n chips. It was so tasty and as we'd just stocked ice at the store, we bought felays for the evening meal.

The afternoon was spend traversing Kilarney Bay and then Landsdowne channel westward and by very late afternoon with crew napping peacefully in the V berth we glided under sail into Browning cove on Haywood Island. Dropping sail and yet coasting, the anchor was eased and the boat came up and set the anchor.

I'd just finished securing everything for the night when the first rumblings of thunder boomed and woke the crew... a half hour later, both rain and nightfall arrived. The crew showed creativity by placing breakfast cereal in a plastic bag and crunching it to form breading for the fish. A bit of wine and it was sailors delight.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 01/20/2006 11:59:05

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/20/2006 : 13:54:59

Kurt, storm sailing is something that sailors should know how to do before they ever get caught out in a storm. You don't want to wait until you get caught in a storm, and then learn how to survive it by trial and error. IMHO, the best way to learn how to sail in a storm is from a book, and the best book I've seen is Heavy Weather Sailing by K. Adlard Coles. Coles apparently sailed small boats through countless Atlantic and North Sea storms, and tried every storm tactic and device then known, and kept detailed notes on how each worked. In his book, he describes each storm, and describes how the boat behaved. Then he stated his conclusion, which basically was that most of the storm techniques and devices worked, but there is no single technique that is good for all situations. You should understand them all, and use the one that works best in the specific conditions that you encounter in each storm.

He discusses the use of sea anchors, drogues, heaving to, lying ahull, running under bare poles, and other techniques, and the conditions when they should and should'nt be used. When you finish reading it, you'll feel that you have a good understanding of most techniques, and that you'll know what to do if you get caught out.

In your post, you say you were running at nearly hull speed under bare poles, and had to fight to keep the boat from broaching. That's a good example. Running under bare poles is a good way to keep sailing, so that you are still in control of the boat, which is generally a good thing, but when your speed is too high, and when the height and shape of the waves overtaking you from astern are lifting the stern of the boat, and the boat starts surfing down the face of the wave, it's time to change tactics. If the boat gets going too fast, it can either broach or pitchpole, either of which would be disastrous. In that situation, you should use any technique that will slow the boat down. You can do that by heaving to, or lying ahull, or you can stream a warp or other drogue, or a sea anchor. Any of those those techniques will slow the boat's speed, and allow the wave to roll under the boat, instead of allowing the boat to surf down the face of the wave. Depending on the height and shape of the waves, some of those techniques might work better than others, and some might even be dangerous in themselves. Cole's book teaches you how to analyze the conditions, and the boat's behavior, as well as the benefits and drawbacks of each technique. It sounds like your instincts were pretty good.

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
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Response Posted - 01/23/2006 : 22:33:51

There is a quote from Melville that I have always loved:

"Familiarity with danger makes a brave man braver, but less daring.
Thus it is with seamen. He that goes most often round Cape Horn goes most circumspectly."

Sort of says it all.

Edited by - on

Capt. Kurt
Navigator

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Response Posted - 01/24/2006 : 16:01:46

Thanks for the tips everyone - I will have to pick up a copy of Heavy Weather Sailing!

Kurt
#818 C250K 'Tortuga'

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