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My First Sail (warning... long post)

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3494 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2006 : 23:19:17

Justin,

Regarding solar panel and boat name:

My website shows my 20Watt Kyocera solar panel installation. I also bought it with a Morningstar Pro15M controller which is an overkill but I wanted the digital readout to view the solar amps and the battery voltage. (The controller can be ordered with or without the digital readout.)

I leave my solar panel on all the time. I leave it on all the time whether I am using the motor or not. Right now, I have using it by plugging it into the 12Volt accessory plug but will later hard wire it. I think the only concern is not to wire it in series with the motor but if it is in parallel or directly wired to the battery and battery switch, that is okay. Oftentimes. if I go sailing and come back at night with my running and steaming lights on, I dock the boat and the digital readout will indicate the battery is partially discharged. This is usually because I may have only been using the motor for about 10 minutes or so to come into the dock and that not being enough time to fully charge the batteries after sailing with lights on for an hour or two. But when I return to the boat a day or two later (if sun was out those days), then the battery is always back in the fully charged state.

Boat names - Just wanted to mention that I there are many sources online for previewing how your name will look if ordering it mailorder. I ordered mine from Boat US. Turns out the Graphics Dept is at Boat US Headquarters in Alexandria, VA not far from Rte 395. I did not realize this until after I placed the order and then happen to be visiting the Boat US/West Marine store at same location. I saw this Graphics Window from the store side and upon inquiry found out they just mailed me the boat name. (May be a bit far for you but if you are in the Chesapeake Bay area just thought I would mention this.) The benefit for me was that some time later, I smudged about a 1/2 " off of two letters turning too sharply (stern first) into my slip. I stopped by the Graphics Dept and asked if they had 1" X 2" scrap material of same color and they cut me a generous piece of at least 1' for free.

When sizing the letters, all that I have read indicates that most people undersize the lettering and the boat name is then not all that visible by other boats when sailing. Depending on the font, the size of the capital and small letters can be all over the place. For example, my lettering was approximately 8" capitals which then has small letters of about 5". But the font I picked has capitals with long tails to them making the capitals actually larger than 8". The Graphics Dept can easily describe just what the actual sizing will be which is not all that apparent on the PC screen.

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 10:33:58

Larry, yeah I was looking at your setup. I was checking prices on the Morningstar Pro15M controller and found it starting around $130 with the meter and around $100 without. Having that digital meter would be handy, although I did just buy the simple battery monitor from CD (doesn’t show voltage, just green-red). I don’t have a 12V accessory plug, but I think I will install one sometime. With my two batteries, can it charge both through the plug? I’m guessing I would have to position the battery switch to “both”. Trying to decide on whether to go with a rigid panel to mount on the stern or with a flexible panel to place on the deck, what are the main differences? I was thinking a setup like yours would be a better option for leaving out all the time, plus it wouldn’t get in the way as much.
Thanks for the tip on getting decals at Boat U.S. I live in the Ashburn area and work in Reston, so I’m in the northern VA area. Looking at my transom, I have to make sure I don’t over lap with the swim ladder or motor bracket. Actually, I just looked at your photos and noticed you put the name on the sides. Maybe that would be a better option. I’m still thinking about my boat’s name, but I’m now leaning towards “Sapphire Breeze”.

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 12:19:27

Justin--just a thought here. I have only had one roller furler, so am no authority, however: Once, on the advice of a sailmaker I skipped the UV fabric on the sail and had a long, zippered sock made which I hoisted around the roller furler on the spinnaker halyard. It worked beautifully, lasted for years and gave no trouble at all. You get the hand of hoisting it quickly. The only problem if you want to call it that, was that in a stiff breeze at the dock it would flutter a bit, but that was solved with a couple of shock cords. It leaves you with a headsail which sets somewhat better than the UV fabric would permit and the investment is probably a little less, certainly no more. And if you do need to replace it, you just order another one, rather than having to take off the sail, take it to the sailmaker, . . .

Nice first sail. Somebody once said that you never remember the times you went for a great day and nothing happened, but the time we blew the headsail. . .

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3494 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 12:50:29

Justin,

I struggled with the boat name as well. Can't really give you advice there. The name you picked sounds fine. I decided to go with something that had some meaning to us (family), but Wind Geezer, etc were also on the list. Robin's Nest was picked because ...well the boat is like a nest and...my wife and I are sort of empty nesters with my son just having graduated Va Tech (looking for a job - Business Finance degree) and my daughter is at ECU (East Carolina University). The "Robin" is my wife's middle name and well...Robin and nest sort of go together anyway. So ..there you have it.

If you check solar panel threads in this forum, I and others have a wealth of info and one posting I made covered the pro/con of each of the panel types. Here is some info but got to get back to work:

1) The accessory plug was on my boat, so that was an added convenience and especially for at least temporarily or maybe permanently using for the solar panel. I can switch to either battery or both since the accessory plug is tied into the battery switch. I normally keep my switch in the both position but if my morotr acts up 9won't start right away) then I switch to just one battery. others separate the use of each battery or use blocking diodes with the solar panel directly to both batteries. The thought there is that if one battery had a bad cell and both batteries were ties to the solar controller/panel, the battery strength overall would be lower rather than having the batteries more or less isolated but still being able to be charged at same time. the blocking diodes prevents one battery's juice crossing over to the other. I may not be explaining this very well - others with electrical experience may be able to clarify it for you (and for me).

2) Having a panel off the stern rail has benefits. The panel is always out which aesthetically may be a small drawback but if mounted like mine with the support brackets I made, the panel is completely out of the way and does not interfere with either tilting the motor or removing the motor. Another benefit of a stern rail mount is that the electrical wires that go from the motor thru the transom, you can use the same entry point for the solar panel wires. Mount the panel anywhere else up forward and then you have to contend with dealing with where do the wires come into the cabin. Mine are out of the way.

3) Also and believe this is an important one that is not addressed by some others and even some distributors that show sample stern rail mountings is that if the solar panel is mounted directly to the stern rail, it will most likely interfere with sitting when you want to sit close to the stern rail or resting your back against the stern rail as I like to do sometimes.

40 The solar panels come 3 basic ways - (a) Rigid with glass top (Kyocera, Siemans, BP, etc; (b) Flexible/roll-up type (Unisolar, etc) - These have a silicon or other type top to them and you can stand on them, roll them up and tuck them away, stick them anywhere on the deck. That is the advantages. The disadvantages are that they come generally with only a 3 year warranty versus 10 years for small rigids and 25 years for the large rigid panels. Flexible panels give slightly less amps for their size compared to rigid panels. Flexible panels are more easily stolen and if not mounted very well, may be a concern in a storm (blowing away), though, rigid panels could have the glass shattered. (c) There is a flexible type panel that has a metal (aluminum) backing plate that allows some contour to the deck (ie. 5-7 degrees) (Solara, etc). These are also thin like the flexible ones. You can also stand on these. They have output similar to rigid panels. Would have to mounted on a support frame to place behind the stern rail. Have a 10 year warranty.

The Solara panel from germany was my first choice. It was the most expensive of the three types but had attributes I liked. Unfortunately, not all panels were widely available last Fall and there may still be some isolated shortages.

A good website to check some availabilities is Arizona Sun and Light. Do a web search thru yahoo to get the URL Address. They sell many of the panels but have a button on their website for checking which panels they currently have in stock. This is important to check from whoever you buy a panel from since some ma and pa shops may be ordering the panles and you may not have a guaranteed shipment date. Arizon was also very helpful providing some info on the controllers. Controllers can be gotten for peanuts or as in the case of the Morningstars and some other brands, they can cost a lot. The cheaper ones will work fine. It just has to with the features and as a minimum most have blocking diodes to prevent night-time leakage wich is supposedly small but can occur whenever there is shade.

Larry

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3494 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 12:51:56

By the way - we are neighbors. I live in Oakton. Sometimes I ride my bike on the WO&D bike path out past Reston and Ashburn.

Edited by - on

welshoff
Captain

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USA
253 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 13:44:37

Justin,
Here is a link and some photos to my solar panel location/mount. I leave it plugged in all the time and between it and motoring my batteries are charged (no volt meter hooked up to date). It has a controller mounted in the aft area of the boat above the batteries. I am not sure of all the paticulars of the controller or the panel, but can get for you if needed. Look toward the bottom of the posts.

http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9315& SearchTerms=panel

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3494 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 17:53:36

Justin,

I was off a bit on the distributor's name. It's Northern Arizona Wind and Sun. Here is the URL:
http://store.solar-electric.com/1to39wasopa.html

Edited by - on

dblitz
Navigator

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240 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 19:40:53

Justin:
In a few years you will probably look back on your first sail fondly.
The fact that you were able to do it in the company of your brother will probably make it extra special.
You shouldn't sweat the details of your story though, just be glad you were able to get out there in January. I bought my boat on the hard in December and it'll probably be end of April before it will be in the water.
I'm coming from a 22 Oday and, frankly, from observing the furler, I'm not really sure how to rig it either. The fellow who bought my Oday came to get it late in the day and, by the time it was ready to
go, lamented that I hadn't shown him how to rig everything. I told him not to worry that everything was pretty straightforward and that he would figure everything out as he went. I heard from him that he had gone sailing already in Delaware. Anyway, bigger is more complicated.
I have not figured out how to rig the topping lift to the boom. I haven't figured out how to rig the furler (I find the instructions from CDI complicated at best).
I guess our new boats will explain themselves to us in due course.
After my long message, I do want to mention a couple of things to you.
One thing that I think is important for emergencies is a smaller, light anchor (8 lbs?) back in the cockpit locker ready for emergency deployment.
If you need to anchor really fast getting up to the bow anchor locker can take too much time. I don't know how the others do it but would like to hear.
As far as your sails go, I have never bought from them but www.usedsails.com were recommended by people and I wonder if anyone has had experience with them and can give us feedback.
Also, I think that a handheld VHF radio may be more useful than one that runs off your boat batteries. You can check the batteries on a handheld frequently and know that it is working. If you go out without a VHF because your batteries are dead is your cell phone waterproof? A handheld VHF can be had waterproof and who knows when you're going to need it.
Hey, if you post again this weekend that you went out again, I'm going to scream. Enjoy.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 20:42:42

Don't waste your money on one of those Cold Heat things. I did!

Works on tiny stuff, won't work on your coaxial, trust me I tried. I got a small pencil torch and a extra can of fuel. You can pick them up pretty cheap in most hardware stores.

http://www.mpja.com/productview.asp?product=7289+TL

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2006 : 11:38:37

Hi Daniel, thanks for the tips. I do actually have another anchor in the cockpit locker, but I didn’t think about using it. What I did learn though is to start the outboard before cranking up the keel. Looking back, I now realize I probably should have told my brother to go ahead and lower the keel back down since we were getting in shallower waters. The keel would have held us and also help prevent from damaging the rudder on the bottom, which luckily didn’t happen.

I’ve thought about a handheld VHF, but since the boat already has one installed, I could use the money on other projects right now. I just need to get the connectors installed so it works. The cell phone is not water proof, but we keep ours in the cabin when under way.

LOL, No, I’m not going to be sailing this weekend. The weather isn’t supposed to be all that great, so I plan to start sanding/refinishing the tiller at home. I also probably need a new headsail, unless I can temporarily patch it up with some ugly duct tape until I replace it. I also want to get everything properly rigged before I go out next time, mainly the furler.

Tom, thanks for the heads up. Glad I didn’t waste my money. I’ll see if I can find an inexpensive butane torch like that.

Thanks,

Edited by - on

Bubba
Admiral

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USA
542 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2006 : 21:25:26

Before you go investing in solar, does your new slip rental already include AC power?

As for soldering, I have a [url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000B638ZW/qid=1139018521/sr=1-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-5934663-4489500?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=228013"]Weller butane soldering kit [/url]and highly recommend it. I found mine at Sears. If you can't find one, you could order it using this link and the association will get a small percentage.

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2006 : 10:42:16

Hi Dave,
Yeah, my new slip will have AC power. I was thinking solar might be a good option since I plan to eventually get a stereo system which will be running in addition to nav lights daily when I spend my weekends on the boat. Since my boat isn't that close to where I live, I will mostly only be able to sail on my weekends and I plan to overnight as much as possible. This might include anchoring out where I won't have AC power, so I was thinking solar might be a good option. I also don't have a shore power, but not sure how important that is. Did you have another idea? Just getting a battery charger? Thanks for the Weller idea. I might stop by Home Depot today and see what they have.

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2006 : 11:32:37

Hi Justin, I don't know how to link to a thread in this forum but I started a thread titled "what type battary charger do you use?" in this forum and in it Frank posted a link to a great article on the merrits of an on-board charger. Might want to read it before buying anything. It changed the way I have been looking at chargers. Cheers.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2006 : 14:44:18

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2006 : 08:53:06

One thing I thought of a couple days ago, but forgot to ask. I thought that what caused the engine to take a while to start may have been due to the low batteries. Remember, I checked the batteries the night before and they were in the 11 V range. While I was sailing I was only using the knot/depth meter, so I didn't drain them much more, but they were already so low. I was thinking maybe that is what caused the engine to take so long to start. Am I right? I'm also hoping this is what is causing the electric starter to not work. When I bought the boat, the starter did not work, but the museum said it worked not long before when it was taken out for a sail. Does the starter have a relay that requires a certain voltage? I spoke with the museum a couple days ago and they plan to charge the batteries and also go to the top of the mast to fix the furler (and maybe replace halyard) and wind vane (2 rear facing fins aren't centered).

Edited by - Justin on 02/09/2006 08:54:08

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2006 : 09:51:04

My Honda has a tired starter and I have yet to troubleshoot it. My first step will be a battery in the cockpit to isolate the engine from the house wiring, next would be bypassing the motor wiring, finally will be removing the starter and dissassembling it to check for corrosion and such. After that It will be a new starter.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3494 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2006 : 12:35:45

Justin,

11 Volts is definitely on the low side. One would think that a 12 volt battery that has a 11 volts would be close to fully charged but it's not the case. Once the voltage drops to the low 11's the battery is in a serious discharged state. if it accepts a charge and can maintain voltage in the mid-high 12s, then it's okay. But if it cannot hold a charge and remains even in the high 11's, the battery is not charging fully and is still significantly discharged.

When I had problems with my motor starting and I would wind up cranking it frequently, the batteries would be reading in the low 12's (ie. 12.2 to 12.4) but once the motor started and ran for awhile or if I left the boat and the solar panel did it's job over the next day or so, the batteries would remain up in the high 12's.

(I sold my motor. new one scheduled to be water tested next Thursday and that is when I should take delivery. The new Hondas with electric start have 12 amp alternators.)

Edited by - on

Todd Frye
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2006 : 13:57:01

When I brought "Boaty" home, I filmed the trip from Lake Pleasant, AZ to Utah Lake, UT. I still enjoy reliving that event. I didn't notice if anyone encouraged you to keep a ships log, but that too is a great keepsake. If sailing conditions deteriorate, we'll hunker down in the slip, and pull out the ships log and remember those great times out on the water. Your first sail will make a great entry. Make sure your guests contribute to your log too. Fair Winds. Todd Frye

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