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Catalina 309

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Downbucket
Navigator

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USA
188 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/26/2006 : 10:09:53

Hi:

Went to the New England Boat Show in Boston yesterday. Loved the new 309. Has anyone else seen one?

Will

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1769 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2006 : 11:39:26

Hi Will,

'Looks like you missed this topic ... it's in the 250 Forum ...

[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11657"]Catalina 309[/url]

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2006 : 12:44:55

I am ignorant and opinionated, that makes my comments virtually worthless, but... I cannot imagine an in mast furler as a good idea. I thought there were enough failures of dock RV designs lately that they would focus on performance with the new boats, I hope I am wrong but it looks like Catalina is loosing its way. Also, in the photos, the cockpit looks small in comparison to the original 30, that would be another mistake, scoop transoms are not worth the lost cockpit space. The 30 is one of the most successful designs in history, it has a proud racing heritage. People have insisted on new 30s long after Catalina intended to end their production. This is not a successor to the 30, the marketing material focuses on young families, maybe their intent is to sell to first time buyers. They have tried that before and it has not done well either.

In comparing the two specs it is obvious or at least would seem that the 310 and 309 are the same hull, one for beginners and one for sailors. It is interesting that the rig is fractional. The 309 is 500 lighter with a taller stick, if they would throw out another 1000lbs, put a real mast on it and a real cockpit in it the could have had a proper entry level boat that would become a great club racer.
[url="http://members.cox.net/mlhopper/catalina/C310WSpecP.jpg"]309-310 spec comparison [/url]

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2006 : 14:09:22

[quote]Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 I am ignorant and opinionated, that makes my comments virtually worthless, but... I cannot imagine an in mast furler as a good idea. /quote]

Actually, after chartering vessels that have in mast furling, it was a good experience. They were well maintained systems. Common sense about operation goes without saying.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2006 : 16:42:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> It is interesting that the rig is fractional. The 309 is 500 lighter with a taller stick, if they would throw out another 1000lbs, put a real mast on it and a real cockpit in it the could have had a proper entry level boat that would become a great club racer.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Fractional doesn't necessarily negate a good racer Frank. There are many a big boat with a fractional design and successful racers too

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2006 : 18:36:22

Duane, I made my point poorly, I would expect a fractional rig to be more performance oriented, but they give you a sail with no battens!

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2006 : 19:16:31

I'll take a classic C30 for $20,000 or a C36 for $40,000 any day over these. Catalina is chasing Hunter these days.

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Jonathan Cuff
Navigator

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Cayman Island
173 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2006 : 08:24:51

We had a look at the Catalina 309 at Strictly Sail at the Miami Boat Show. We really liked it, but are in agreement with Frank with regard to the in mast furling system. I guess we're just traditionalists in that respect. I've just heard to many stories of things jamming up just when you don't want them to.

That said the cockpit room to us seemed really good and we really liked the transom design. Also we prefer the 'old fashioned' arrangement down below which places the head/shower fwd rather than at one side of the companionway. Overall the boat seemed nicely finished with all the equipment in the right places.

We looked at the Hunter's as well, and maybe we're biased but thought it didn't hold a candle to the Cat. We'd certainly look at getting one after they've ironed out the innevitable teething issues, and we've saved up $80,000!!

Cheers Jonathan

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2006 : 22:42:29

I don't much care for the interior layout of this new 30-footer. Most of the Catalina 30's I've been on were built in the early 80's, and I like the layout of those better, with the head between the V-berth and salon (like our Catalina 25's of course), and the port-aft galley with the engine situated right in the middle of the cabin floor (concealed under a galley cabinet) for easy maintenance access.
For that matter, my favorite car is the Mercedes-Benz 300D sedan from the early to mid 80's (I have never owned one, just like the way they look: functional, quiet elegance, not pretentious or fancy-schmancy). I guess these opinions make me a hopelessly fossilized, narrow-minded "old fart" with no sense of style. Also on the Cat.-309, I don't think I would ever want an in-mast roller-furling mainsail. The lack of battens would make the sail almost useless in light-air conditions, and the potential for a mechanical failure could would be sure to occur in bad weather at the worst possible moment.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2006 : 14:24:24

I looked it over at the NE show... Wasn't impressed by either the V-berth or the aft berth--neither seemed accessible for two people (a prime criterion for me). Mast furling systems can have battens--vertical ones--I have no idea whether Catalina does that, but the taller rig can make up for what's lost in the roach as well as compensating for the fractional rig. Also, the furler offers a lot more flexibility and simplicity for reducing sail. Purists scoff at our rolling gennies--I love 'em. This boat might be targeted at the aging C-25-27-28 owners who otherwise might go over to the dark side for ease of operation, but the berths don't quite hack it. Give me a 310 with the nice centerline mattress forward, and then throw in a Dutchman system.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2006 : 16:35:49

Isn't the mast heavy enough without stuffing a sail and its furling gear in it? And why add so much unnecessary weight aloft? If a furled main is required, put it in the boom along with its battens, at least the weight will be lower.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT # 3936 Patchogue, N.Y.

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Derek Crawford
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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2006 : 17:56:22

In-mast furling for the mainsail is as useless as snow in August! The only one I have seen is on the Beneteau and it is as flat as a pancake (or Kansas!

) and totally unable to be shaped. However, if you just want to lollygag around...
Derek

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2006 : 18:54:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 In-mast furling for the mainsail is as useless as snow in August! The only one I have seen is on the Beneteau and it is as flat as a pancake (or Kansas!

) and totally unable to be shaped. However, if you just want to lollygag around...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
(...that from our resident expert on snow...

) The only in-mast system I've seen up close was loose-footed (like the picture above), which would seem to allow for some lateral shaping (if not as much as a racer would want). But then, I guess I mostly lollygag... When I really need to cover some ground to get somewhere, it's either doldrums or blowing right on the nose, so the iron genny is deployed. I guess that's when I'd want a flatter main...

To Val's point, rolling the main into the boom makes a much fatter roll. The aluminum or carbon furling tube adds a little weight aloft--the sail itself is aloft when you're sailing whether you have furling or not.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2006 : 22:16:34

Not knowing what defined a fractional rig, I looked it up at this site http://marina42.net/cgi-bin/p/m42p-custom.cgi?d=passage-yachts-inc&id=615
The author provides a good comparison and descriptive of various sail types. However, the author goes on to comment about hull shape as they apply to different rigs.

Good designs by professional naval architects will incorporate a narrow, flared forward hull section to slice through the seas easily and a plumb stern to compliment the rig. This is the sailing difference between a Beneteau and a Catalina. 

A little further reading reveals that the author sells Beneteaus. Is there a significant difference between Catalina and Beneteau hulls?

And by the way Derek, IMHO snow is useless in March too.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2006 : 22:20:02

"that from our resident expert on snow"
Duane - I lived in Winnipeg for 18 years - many degrees below zero and many feet of snow from Halloween to end of April.
Now you know why I moved to Texas!

Derek

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2006 : 22:54:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 "that from our resident expert on snow"
Duane - I lived in Winnipeg for 18 years - many degrees below zero and many feet of snow from Halloween to end of April.
Now you know why I moved to Texas!

Derek
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I humbly prostrate myself...

(But who's "Duane"?) Getting ready for snow and sleet tomorrow...

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2006 : 23:13:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 Good designs by professional naval architects will incorporate a narrow, flared forward hull section to slice through the seas easily and a plumb stern to compliment the rig. This is the sailing difference between a Beneteau and a Catalina. 

A little further reading reveals that the author sells Beneteaus. Is there a significant difference between Catalina and Beneteau hulls?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Not sure about the differences between Cat and Ben, but the rake of the transom is a style thing--nothing else. Fractional Americas Cup racers have severely raked transoms (for what--aerodynamics?), fractional J-boats (no slouches on the racecourse) have trademark plumb transoms, and everyone else is somewhere between. Catalina and others use the appearance of a raked transom to surround a cutaway swim platform. The only thing that matters is the waterline length, the shape of the hull under water and, to an extent, above the water toward the bow--a plumb bow slices waves, while a raked bow causes the boat to pop up more over waves. (Classic designs have reverse-raked transoms, which reduces the waterline length compared to the length overall, and therefore is a disadvantage for speed relative to size, but offers some protection in following seas.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/01/2006 23:18:33

bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2006 : 10:08:24

I'm not completely sure about this but I think that the reverse=raked transoms were developed to decrease the waterline length to meet some sort of racing class specs, but then waterline length increases as the boat is healed. OTOH, raked transoms allow the designer to likewise meet some waterline length spec but since there is less hull there is less weight (and cost?). Over time these designs become 'classic' ..

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2006 : 13:44:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Not sure about the differences between Cat and Ben<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
re the quote from Dave...

I'm not sure about the differences between Catalina and Beneateu either, when I was shopping for my boat, I chose Catalina mostly because of this forum. I saw more Beneteaus for sale than I saw Catalinas - I heard lots of reasons to buy a Catalina, but i could not find a reason, other than there are a lot of them, to buy a Beneteau. American or French. Most of the Beneataus I saw were sufferning from neglect, whereas the Catalinas generally seemed to be kept up. The Beneteaus, to my untrained eye, looked to be 'straighter' and the Catalinas tended to be more curvy.
A curvy American or a straight Frenchie.
How about an American French Maid?
Okay, back to boats....

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2006 : 14:51:09

In the mid 80s when the Beneteau 23 was introduced the magazines were all over themselves about the brilliant plumb bow which provided maximum LWL/LOA. (provided you brought the waterline length all the way back to the transom.) Our Catalinas pretty much have a modern transom in that regard, what little rise is there disappears as the bow waves begin. Our bow is more plumb than many and I beleive the over all waterline of our boats was very forward thinking at the time. Look at the 27; the 22 was also blessed with a long waterline and its design success has spoken to its value.
As for Catalina over Beneteau, I am now a fan of the Catalina liner method and do not like the wood paneling in the few Beneteaus I have seen. (I am undecided about the vinyl headliner.)

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2006 : 16:39:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bbriner
 I'm not completely sure about this but I think that the reverse=raked transoms were developed to decrease the waterline length to meet some sort of racing class specs, but then waterline length increases as the boat is healed...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I think that effect is gained primarily by designing an overhang astern. Ideally, the transom never drags in the water except possibly at extreme heel. Actually, many of the A.C. boats have almost totally open transoms, although NZL's cockpit managed to fill up with water anyway... The sides are cut away at the stern (appearing like a raked transom) possibly to reduce weight while maximizing the LWL, or maybe just to look hot.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2006 : 16:53:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 It is interesting that the (309) rig is fractional...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If it is, from the pictures, it's about 15/16ths, if not virtually masthead. I also noticed that there's no visible roach, so no battens needed. I don't think much of the ovoid "Euro" windows...

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