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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Adding A Jib

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sfein
1st Mate

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36 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/02/2006 : 23:33:02

I currently have a standard rig 80" C-25. Has Harken roller furling on genoa. I have some old sails, jib, storm jib, even a 110%. They are all hank on but the current boat has furling hiding the front rigging to attatch the sail to. Any suggestion on how to overcome this. I was thinking of adding a second line to the bow to run my hank on sails and keep the genoa furling untouched. Is there any way to do this? Has anyone had any experiences? Concerns?

Stuart

Stuart Fein
Blonde Over Blue
1980 Catalina 25
East Hampton, New York

Edited by - on

sfein
1st Mate

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36 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2006 : 23:39:39

I think the correct terminology would be adding a second forestay to run my hank on sails?

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 01:47:32

You really don't want to do that. Your furling has an extrusion, which is generally not too happy about being hit sideways, by anything, and hanks make a lot of damage when they keep rubbing against anything.

Take your old hank on sails and have the hanks removed and have a luff tape sewn on to the ones you want to keep.

Then you can use your wide range of sails, one at a time, on your furler.

Our experience is that during the winter months here in San Francisco, we use our larger head sail, and can furl it in when its windier.

During the summer we use our smaller blade jib.

Both are on the furler.

You'll learn what works for you, either by season or by wind strength.

And besides, you used to hank sails on all the time, so what's different than changing head sails on a furler?

Actually it's easier, you don't have to do and undo the hanks!

Edited by - on

Brian King
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 07:46:26

Stuart, I've been thinking about this problem for a couple of years now. I may actually try this idea this summer.

The quick resolution to your problem (and mine, I had the same situation, a CDI furler with a 150% and a hank on 110%) is to carefully remove the brass hanks and replace them with sail slugs that fit into the groove of your particular foil. I used waxed sail thread and "stitched" (wrapped may be a better term) the slugs onto the sail through the grommets in the sail. I probably used 15 - 20 wraps on each one. Now I can replace my 150 with the 110 with relative ease (as easy as it gets to replace a furling jib).

Long term, I'd love to install a removable inner forestay keeping it parallel to the headstay (furler foil) but about 6" - 12" inside of the mainstay. You'd have to mount a padeye (with a good sized backing plate behind it) on the foredeck, use a quick release turnbuckle at the bottom. When not in use the inner stay would be brought back to the mast and attached to the base of the mast out of the way. To use it you'd connect it to the padeye, tension it, hank on your sail, use your spare jib halyard to hoist it up. This is not my original brainstorm, I saw an article on this in a sailing mag a few years ago and saved the clipping. They called it a solent stay. I really want to try it this summer.

Good luck with yours.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 14:56:35

Brian,

I too had thoughts of adding an inner stay to make my tall rig a cutter when needed, primarily for heavy air though. Several months ago there was an article in Sail magazine showing how to do this correctly. Ideally you will need to add more than just a large backing plate or your deck may pull up in a blow. Though not demonstrated on a C25, the article showed the deck hardware anchored to the hull below the v-berth with wire rope and a large turnbuckle. My 88 TR has a septic tank there so I wouldn't be able to make this arrangment work. I've since given up on it. I am still working on an idea for mid-boom sheeting for the main though, with the traveler recessed into the seat.

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sfein
1st Mate

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36 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 15:48:22

Do either of you know what publication that article was in , what month etc.. I think I am interested in adding the second forestay as I use the jib and storm jib on a Laguna 26 ( sister ship to the Catalina 25) and do not want to start cutting the sail?

Thanks

Stuart

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 15:55:57

YOU SEND THE SAILS TO THE SAIL MAKER AND HAVE LUFF TAPE ADDED.
Anything else is a red herring. Stuart you have a Harken! It has two foil slots, you are supposed to change headsails.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 17:17:29

That inner stay definitely should have more than a backing plate--especially if you intend to use it for storm conditions. I'd want an expert opinion on what to tie it to. Remember that your anchor locker takes up a fair amount of space at the bow--the stay would have to go aft of that. I agree with modifying the sail. In "normal" conditions, you can roll up part of the genny if the wind picks up, and in rough conditions, you can change sails before you go out.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 18:36:14

I remember reading an article in one of the sail mags about adding an inner forestay and it involve anchoring the stay through the deck all the way to the hull.

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ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2006 : 18:21:28

Although rigging inner forestays has been discouraged in past threads I plan on trying it the next time my boat is in the yard.I guess I need to see for myself why something won't work.
My rf 110 is just right for the strong wind of late spring/early summer.By September the wind is starting to mellow but can still jump up unexpectedly.Perfect time to hoist my 150 genoa on an inner forestay(if the luff isn't to long

)I don't want to be without this sail in light wind especially downwind,but I want to drop it and go to the 110 when the wind comes up.
This senario is exactly why I would not care to go to the bow single-handed and remove one sail from the furler slot and feed in another.For me that would defeat the whole idea behind the roller furling headsail.I know there are lots of variables and it may not work but since I have rigging ideas spinning around my head all day every day I'm going to try it.
Here are some sources of info:SAIL magazine Aug. 2004'Solent Logic',SailNet archives'Double Headstays',BoatWorks Magazine Summer 2005'Installing an inner forestay',SAIL magazine Sept 2005 pg.85'soft(rope)inner forestay' and really interesting 'Nigel Calders Cruising Handbook' pg.55 and 310 where he writes about flying a genoa and a furler jib downwind with no inner forestay

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2006 : 18:41:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 YOU SEND THE SAILS TO THE SAIL MAKER AND HAVE LUFF TAPE ADDED.
Anything else is a red herring. Stuart you have a Harken! It has two foil slots, you are supposed to change headsails.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I concur.

If you want to put a staysail in the middle, They have them that have their own stay running through the luff. All you need is a second halyard and a bolt eye mid fordeck.

Resail value on stuff like this is not good, due to structural changes that weren't accounted for in the original design.

Edited by - on

ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2006 : 09:56:10

Duane
When I purchased my headsail from Gary Swenson at Ullman Ventura he suggested rigging a wire in the luff of my 150 with no inner stay.I'm not sure I understand your next comment.A lot of the upgrades we all make are structural changes.Your idea about an eyebolt and a second halyard sounds good and one would only have to remove the bolt and fill in the hole to return it to factory condition.

Edited by - on

sfein
1st Mate

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36 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2006 : 11:01:26

I think I will wait on this until next year as there seems to be some more discussions that need to occur prior to adding this.

I also do not understand the structural comment. Many topics we discuss in the forum, IE, cutting holes to add solar vents, etc.... are way more structural than adding a foredeck plate and two screws. To add a solar vent you need to CUT a LARGE hole in the deck. I can not imagine though that the solar vent reduces the value of the boat?

Stuart

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2006 : 16:14:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sfein
 I think I will wait on this until next year as there seems to be some more discussions that need to occur prior to adding this.

I also do not understand the structural comment. Many topics we discuss in the forum, IE, cutting holes to add solar vents, etc.... are way more structural than adding a foredeck plate and two screws. To add a solar vent you need to CUT a LARGE hole in the deck. I can not imagine though that the solar vent reduces the value of the boat?

Stuart

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Stuart, a vent is a non stress inducing structural change, in fact the vent itself may add enough strength that there is no net effect regarding strength and structural integrity. A large pad eye through bolted on a foredeck would concentrate large stresses in a very small location. Depending on the sail and wind conditions the load could far exceed the design parameters of a deck then was design to bear only the downward pressures of several people. Remember that now you are pulling up and against the curve of the deck so no load is being distributed out to the hull as it is when a load is pressing down. That all said, our boats are hell built for stout and with a decent sized backing plate and less than gale force winds it could be a non event, but the idea was certainly not envisioned when the boat was designed. That is why some articles suggest a rod to transfer the upward load on down to the hull, a'la dolphin striker on a bow sprit.
For me the bottom line is that is seems a silly exercise when if you really want a second sail with a furler, like a drifter, you can have a wire luff put in them and simply tack them to the bowstem, mine has extra holes. And if you want to change headsails then you simply take the old one down and put up another. Red Herrings are seductive wastes of time and resources and to be avoided when possible.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 03/05/2006 18:59:47

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2006 : 19:42:41

Since I don't have a furler, I am a bit unwise in this area. I was under the impression that the concept of a furled headsail is that it is good in all conditions, excellent in none....What I am getting at is, if a small sail is what is wanted, don't you just have to furl the thing in?

dw

Edited by - on

ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2006 : 12:42:58

I was advised by my sailmaker that in my area of predominatly high wind that a reefed 110 (with foam luff)would give me a flatter shape than say a reefed 135.This sail works fine for most of the year but by late summer I'm missing my 150 in light air.For me furling my 110 and hoisting the 150 for upwind or a cruising chute for reaching would be easier than feeding that sail into the foil.More important than that is being able to drop that sail in a hurry and go back to the 110 when the wind kicks up.

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Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2006 : 13:45:59

The one thing that hasn't seemed to have been discussed is what happens to the new inner stay at the TOP. If it connects to the existing fittings at the top of the mast, it must get closer to the furler extrusion as it goes up and essentially connect to it at the top. If the furler headpiece is still there, it'll conflict with it. Haven't heard anything about that.

PS: Seems there are two "Stuarts" here, Stuart, and me, Stu.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2006 : 14:13:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stu Jackson C34
 The one thing that hasn't seemed to have been discussed is what happens to the new inner stay at the TOP. If it connects to the existing fittings at the top of the mast, it must get closer to the furler extrusion as it goes up and essentially connect to it at the top. If the furler headpiece is still there, it'll conflict with it. Haven't heard anything about that.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Good point! The swivel at the top needs to be clear of things like halyards. My P.O. apparently caught a halyard while turning the furler and partially untwisted the top of the forestay--neither my surveyor nor I noticed it. I doubt that a second stay can go to the masthead casting. If it's fixed to the mast further down, that pretty much guarantees that a standard sail will be too tall.

Our esteemed Commodore has a furling system that hoists with a halyard, which he uses for a genny in light-to-moderate air, while he hoists a hank-on 110 or other heavy air sail on the forestay. The furled sail can be dropped onto the fore- and side-deck. Since it's essentially a "loose luff", it probably isn't great in heavy air--that's what the hank-on sail is for, and that's where you want some heavy tension on the luff.

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ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2006 : 22:31:38

Dave and Stu
You are right.An inner stay could not connect at the masthead without interfering with the furler drum and I'm pretty sure the luff on my 150 went from deck to masthead.Which means that length would also not work in my furler groove.So what happens to the performance of a 150% LP sail when the luff is shortened?Maybe this is a question for another post?
Thanks,Craig

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