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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Flying Symmetrical Spinnaker w/o Pole

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/03/2006 : 14:46:39

I've been looking for an asymetrical spinnaker for my boat, for those extra light air days next summer, but haven't found one yet. I did find a really nice symmetrical chute on Ebay however, that hasn't been bid up too much yet.

My question is, can a singlehander fly it poleless, like a cruising chute, and, can you sail it as high as a beam reach? If you can do those things with a sym. chute, then why don't people just buy one chute and use it both ways? In other words, what can an asym. do that a sym. can't?

Also, can it be doused with a chute scoop, like an asym.?

I'm looking for any info that will help me decide whether the sail would be useful enough to me, as a singlehander.

Thanks!

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 16:03:07

I would think a sailmaker could insert a pie wedge shape in the foot going up and flatten the sail.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 16:12:01

I've easily flown my spin poleless as an asym. I actually tied one clew to the pulpit and ran the other sheet back to my cockpit as normal. It would probably be better to make a pendant and tie the clew serving as a foot to the pendant, the other end of the pendant on the deck.

Use the halyard to tighten or loosen the luff.

If the luff is tight, the boat will point a little higher than a beam reach.

What an asym gives you is a hank at the top, a hank on the bottom, and an acutal luff cut flat to lie reasonably tight along the forestay. I think the asym will point higher than a poleless spin. A poled spin will go downwind MUCH bettter than a asym.

What you lose with this poleless setup is the ability to adjust the draft of the spin and to trim the pole up, down, forward and back to take maximum advantage of the air.

It is also quite a bit harder to "dump spin" with the clew (foot) tied to a pendant or to the pulpit so be careful it could be a spinnaker broach just waiting to happen!

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 16:29:17

Steve, I've been looking for an used asymmetrical as well to learn with, they are much more difficult to find than the symmetrical. I did read about the ATN Tacker, they claim it allows you to fly the symmetrical like an asymmetrical. Has anyone tried one of these?

http://www.atninc.com/tacker.html

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 19:12:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tompotter
 Has anyone tried one of these?

http://www.atninc.com/tacker.html

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I have the Tacker and it appears to work good, but I don't have much practical experience with it since I rarely fly my symetrical or asymetrical spinnakers.

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takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2006 : 22:51:59

Steve - Its possible, but you won't get the performance of either a sym chute with pole or a true asym. That said, you'll still get a lot of full-bellied sail up and go downwind better than you would with a gennoa. You will not be able to carry it very high, however. The windward shoulder is going to luff very early without support. You won't be able to pull shape into the luff without distorting the rest of the sail. Why not use the pole?

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britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2006 : 07:52:47

Anyone know of a good online tutorial on using gensymikars? (never put one up!)

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2006 : 08:50:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Why not use the pole?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">It's too much for an aging singlehander. If I had crew, I'd enjoy flying a symmetrical spinnaker, but most of the time, I won't have crew. For that reason, what I'm really looking for is an asymm. chute, but I saw a potentially good buy on a symm. sail, and I'm trying to decide whether I can get enough limited use out of it to justify buying it.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2006 : 10:30:11

Steve -

A gennaker or asym is normally flown without a pole on racers such as a J105. There pole is actually a bow sprit. I think you'd be more than alright without it. As a matter of fact, poling an asym would most likely put the pole on the wrong side of the kite.
dw

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takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2006 : 11:38:09

Poling an asym needs to be done with a prod, agreed. I thought that the question was about flying Sym without a pole. Did I goof that?

Steve - do you have a double luff headstay/foil?

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2006 : 12:19:24

Okay if the question was a sym without a pole then I can answer that too - and can rightly say I don't always read every word.-

It is tough to do, however I used to do it - the pic below in my sig shows me doing it.

Your angles off the wind get shrunk down. Dead downwind becomes really tough. Reaching, broad reaching and just off a run are very capable. I attached about a 6 foot line to the bow stem, outside the pulpit and clipped that to one clew. The other clew was the sheet. We honestly only gybed once with this configuration, and it was done with the other sheet being outside of everything with kite moving in front of the forestay.

Takedown wouldn't be easy single handed - I'd definitely consider a spin sock. And if somebody else already recommended that, it would be another instance where I have proven I don't always read every post in a thread.

dw

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2006 : 17:01:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Steve - do you have a double luff headstay/foil?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yes. Would that help me fly a symm. chute poleless?

I plan on getting a spin sock or chute scoop for either type of chute. I think I'd need it for singlehanding.

Duane, the way you described gybing is the way we gybed the spinnaker on a friend's J24. I've never flown an assym., but aren't you supposed to gybe them the same way - in front of the headstay?

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2006 : 18:26:08

On a J-24? That's surprising. Most Asym's are gybed that way, but they also have the bow sprit. I've honestly never been on an Asym boat to see it in action. Sailing World had a pictorial sometime in the last year (sorry i don't know the exact issue) that showed all the steps for the gybe.

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britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2006 : 18:57:01

Found this on the subject (well almost on subject)

[url="http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/spinnaker/spinnaker.htm"]link to diy spiniker[/url]

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2006 : 02:27:30

Steve, I used to do this a lot with a chute I made from a Sailrite kit. i was not racing at the time and it worked fine. In fact, the 2004 Nationals teeshirts have a picture on the back that features my boat flying that chute and I was doing about 7.5 knots with the wind forward of the beam. I used a sliding tack led back to the cockpit so I could raise the tack when going downwind, and tighten the luff when sailing higher. A chute scoop was a big help and allowed me to fly it singlehanded.

If your spin halyard block is forward of the forestay, gybe out and around the forestay. However, it is possible to gybe INSIDE if you use the jib halyard...just like a big genny.

This sounds very viable to me, having done it a lot in the "old days" before the pole and gear I use these days.

Gary B.
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

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britinusa
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USA
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Response Posted - 03/05/2006 : 06:53:52

Ok, come on you guys.... How about showing some pics that give the rest of us a clew (hic) of what you are all talking about.

How about some 'ejucashun'!

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2006 : 08:45:24

Steve,
Doyle sails makes the point in their Asym FAQs that if an Asym is attached forward of the forestay then it should be tacked/gybed forward of the forestay, (really long sheets!), if it is attached inside the forestay it should be tacked/gybed inside the forestay as a genoa.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2006 : 09:21:48

Is it a big (expensive) job to have a sailmaker recut a symmetrical spinnaker for use as a cruising spinnaker, and will the resulting sail be reasonably functional, or will you just end up with a butchered sail?

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2006 : 09:34:08

Duane and I plus others have already answered the initial question about flying a sym as an asym. Its easy to do single handed. Do you ever pole out the end of your jib single handed? Flying a sym spin single handed is not much harder, here is how I do it.

Before heading out: lead spin sheets to pulpit, clip on - sheets are outside of everything. Rig pole foreguy (downhaul), leave on but slack. Pole lift line is clipped to the bottom of the mast. All these lines are led aft but it would actually be easier if they were not (single handed). Take spin halyard to an eye on the very outside end of the pulpit - outboard of forestay. Spin is in turtle bag. All the ends are tied together with a piece of twine and they are on top (of course). I also have 4 foot long ties hanging off the lifelines in various places around the bow, looped over lifelines with half hitches. A sailor should always have a handful of 4 foot lines handy (and a folding and locking knife).

When setting spin:

(1) Set autopilot for downwind. Drop jib. Tie off to lifelines or simply roll up if roller furling. Put preventer on main.
(2) go to bow, rig pole lift. Pick up pole and set outboard end on pulpit. Tie loose with a 4 foot tie around pole and pulpit. Raise inboard end and make to mast. The reason I always leave the foreguy on loose is in case you drop the pole you can't lose it. Make sure jib sheets go OVER the pole lift line.
(3) Clip turtle bag to lifeline near pulpit opposite side of pole. Untie twine.
(4) Rig spin sheets (one through pole jaws, around forestay to clew in bag. The other to clew in bag. Make sure they are OVER the lifelines, under the pole lift, above the part of the foreguy laying on deck. Don't need to pre-feed on our small sails.
(5) Clip on spin halyard. Un tie pole "loose tie" around pulpit. Sail is now in bag with all lines run.
(6) Return to cockpit. Hoist pole lift. Lightly tension foreguy. Hoist spin. Trim sheets. Adjust lift and guy.

My spin sheets go to blocks aft of the stern pulpit and then to jamb cleats just behind the cockpit winches. Winches can be used if necessary. I only do this in light air, otherwise I can pole out my 170 for good downwind performance. But its fun to fly the spin and it looks so good on the water! It takes me about a mile to get it up, though. Good exercise.

To gybe: Turn downwind, bring pole back to right angle to mast. Gybe main and set preventer. Go to bow. Unhook pole from mast (supported by pole lift). Grab spin sheet with the pole, pull in, unhook. Move to other side of boat. Pull in sheet, hook in pole jaws, return to mast, muscle the pole up to the mast and make in pole base. Gybing is easy. The trick is having the pole at right angles to mast and held by pole lift. The problem is you'll probably have to run to cockpit at least once to adjust foreguy or lift which is why you might as well have these lines on the foredeck.

To douse: Turn downwind, try to blanket spin by main, prevent main. Bring pole forward, try to set it on the pulpit.
Release clutch on spin halyard, hold on to end, go to bow. Use the "loose tie" to tie pole to pulpit. Grab sail in free hand, let go spin halyard. Haul the sucker in ASAP. Stuff in bag leaving sheets clipped on and head, tack and clew outside of the bag. Unclip halyard and move to the ring on the pulpit. Secure pole, untie jib. Return to cockpit and hoist jib.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2006 : 10:23:06

By the way, many of the real race boats are now going to Asyms, since you can now fly them without PHRF penalties. An asym gives higher pointing and is better than a spin in most race conditions except of course dead down wind - which most race boats avoid. Much quicker to fly and douse for the crew, as well.

Our race boat is getting one, plus a number 2 jib. Sym will probably be staying in the bag.

Thats a reason why you can find used sym spins so easy.

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takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2006 : 10:38:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Is it a big (expensive) job to have a sailmaker recut a symmetrical spinnaker for use as a cruising spinnaker, and will the resulting sail be reasonably functional, or will you just end up with a butchered sail?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I wouldn't do this. You're going to have WAY too much belly in the sail. In addition, the seams are going to be oriented incorrectly for the load paths. You'll be into the sail for too much and it won't work well. I'd wait and find the right sail at the right price.

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