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Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/06/2006 : 09:17:13

I finally saw my boat again this weekend and I have a couple questions about my outboard. It's a Honda 15hp, probably mid 90s. I've read the manual and could not find any more info, but here's one question. There is a green light that is supposed to remain lit to show that oil pressure is good. I remember it being on in the past, but it was not on yesterday when I ran the engine for a few minutes. I checked the oil and it was at the full mark and it looked fresh as well. I don't know when the previous owner last changed it, but in this photo you can see it looks fresh.
[url="http://justin4192.zoto.com/img/640x480x1/9b5a8818e077bd62444f720eec273092-97fc7.jpg"]Click for larger[/url]

In some ways I thought it appeared to be too clear, but I let the newspaper sit in the sun and it did not dry. I was wondering if water could have some how gotten inside, but it did not appear to be. The manual says to look for oil leaks if the light does not turn on, but I did not see any leaks. Does anyone have any other ideas of what I should look into? It seems to be running well and only took 3-4 pulls to start.

My other question has to do with the alternator. Just this morning I think I may have answered it myself, but I thought I'd ask. I checked the battery voltages before I ran the engine. Both are very low, ~11V and ~7V. I then started the engine and let it run for a few minutes. While it was running, I tested the voltages again to see if the alternator was charging them at all and the voltage did not change 1/100th of a volt. I inspected the outboard wire connections and they appeared to be good. This morning I then realized I never turned the battery selector switch from off. I'm now pretty sure that was why the alternator didn't charge, but can someone verify my thinking?

Thanks,

Justin
Previous Owner of Sapphire Breeze - 1982 Catalina 25 SK/SR
My sail blog site: https://reveriesailing.com/

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3521 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2006 : 11:08:05

My motor definitely goes thru the battery selector switch. I can read the voltage on my solar panel controller - it monitors the battery voltage. My solar panel right now also goes thru the battery selector switch because I have it right now hooked up thru the 12 volt accessory plug. When the motor is off but it is sunny outside, the voltage moves up from in the mid 13Volt range to high 13 - 14 Volt low range. If I then start the motor, the voltage withen climb into the high 14s.

if your batteries are reading 11 and 7 volts.....that does not sound too good especially if they have been that way for a long time. Obviously, best to try with selector switch on and see if batteries will benefit from the alternator and hold the charge. Rcmd first check your battery water level to make sure it's okay and then go ahead and charge it up with a battery charger or the motor. Hopefully, your motor alternator is still working okay - I don't think they rcmd running the motor without the circuit completed but....not sure if it really would damage the alternator if the circuit was open. Not sure about your light issue. I know it is to signal oil pressure, etc concerns but not sure about the etc. may want to check in your manual..would be nice to find out that it does not come on when the alternator circuit is open...!

Larry

Edited by - on

Esteban
Navigator

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139 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2006 : 11:14:08

Justin,

I have the 8 horsepower mid-late 90s. That light is tough to see during daylight. Cup you hand over it or put some shade over it - I bet you will find it is on.

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2006 : 11:49:36

Larry, good thinking about maybe the circuit needs to be completed for that light to come on. I hope that's it because I remember the light came on the previous times it started and I had the battery selector switched on then. That would also be one less thing I need to be concerned about. Yeah, I realize the batteries are very low. I wonder if the one in the 7 volt range will even be able to hold a charge again. I'll check the water levels and get them charged.

Esteban, I thought it might be hard to see with it being a sunny day, but I tried cupping my hand around it and still didn't see any light.

I'm not going to be able to see my boat for almost two weeks because I'm going out of town this week and next. I have a list of things I need to get done before I sail across the bay the end of this month. I can't wait for it to be closer and the weather to warm up. 4 hours total of driving to see my boat is quite long.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2006 : 12:08:41

Hi Justin... I too have found that light hard to see (especially on the '95 that came with the boat), and don't know whether the open circuit affects it. It could also be that the sensor is bad. Water in the oil turns it milky and sometimes pushes foam out of the dipstick tube, so that's easy to see. With an apparently bad battery, I'd avoid putting your selector on "both" and charge them one at a time. That 7-volter is probably due for a new battery--West has a sale now--I don't know how that stacks up with other prices.

BTW everyone, this week West has a great price on PCA ablative paint with an anti-slime additive--$70/gallon. I'm headed over there this afternoon. --oops... Thursday!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/06/2006 13:45:41

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2006 : 18:35:29

Got 1 1/2 gallons the other day. Talked them into giving me the two extra quarts for 1/2 the gallon sale price. Total bill for the deal including tax $128.03 Also took my Guest battery charger back and exchange it for a Xantrex dual 10 AMP. Found out from a thread on the forum that the Guest charger would not go to bulk charge when you place a draw on the batteries while charging. I look in the book in it states to turn all applainces off before charging. The Xantrex drops back to bulk charge when you turn something on in the boat while charging so you in effect are running lights and other items with the charger and not depleating the batteries.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2006 : 21:21:41

Well if your not into painting the light green, I guess your out of luck.

Justin, the oil pressure warning device consists of a pressure switch and a lamp. As the engine starts, oil pressure closes the switch and the output from the exciter coil provides current for the lamp to glow. As the engine speed reaches 2000-2500 rpm, the light should be plainly visible.
If you measure between the positive and negative connections at the charging plug with an ohmmeter (engine not running) you will be measuring across the charging coil. You should get a measurement of 0.12 to 0.15 ohms. A virtual short. With the engine running at 6,000 rpm (full throttle) you should be able to measure ~5A between the battery and the plug. This will give you an indication if the charging circuit is operational.
There is a seprate coil for the charging circuit and another one for providing the current to the oil pressure lamp so not having charging current does not necessarily mean you do not have power to the lamp.
There are 5 things that can cause your problem:
1. Lack of engine oil
2. Blown lamp bulb
3. Faulty pressure switch
4. Shorted or faulty exciter coil
5. Faulty oil pump

1. You already checked
2. The lamp can be replaced
3. Follow the wire from the lamp to the switch and it can be removed and cleaned. It is on the same side of the engine as the spark plugs, directly under the flywheel. I think you can reach it withoput removing the flywheel. The connector has a rubber boot on it. Put some gasket sealer on the threads when you screw it back in.
4. Verify the resistance as I mentioned above.
5. Very unlikely is the problem. Oil pumps are hearty beasts and this one runs off the end of the camshaft. If your engine runs and doesn't overheat, you have oil pressure.

So check the lamp, the coil resistance and the switch (if you can). Otherwise take it to a shop and have them look at it. Or you could just forget it. I never had an outboard with an oil warning device before I got this one. An engine without oil pressure would be worn out in no time and probably difficult to start.

Of course you could always paint it green.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2006 : 21:53:24

If your batteries are that far in between, I'd definitely consider what dave said and charge them separately. you might need to add distilled water to them as well. I'd even consider taking the 7 off the boat and charging it at home.

If you need a new battery I would consider buying two as well. A battery Isolator might also help you out here too.

Duane

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2006 : 08:10:21

Joe, thanks for really good tips! I'll look into those and see if I can figure it out. The engine seems to be running well, so hopefully it isn't anything major. The only other problem which I didn't mention because I was assuming it is because of the dead batteries is the electric starter does not work. The museum sales rep said it worked fine before and he thought it's probably the dead batteries. Pressing the starter switch doesn't do a thing, not even slowly. Does the starter require a certain voltage to even turn on?
Here's a photo of the engine and it looks well taken care of I think:

I need to check out the battery water levels. I got a West Marine ad in the mail yesterday. It showed the paint sale everyone is talking about, but also they are having batteries on sale.

Thanks for the help so far.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2006 : 09:12:55

Justin,
If I was in your shoes I would take the batteries home and charge them up good. They sound just like my batteries when I bought Utopia. One bad and the other on the way. I charged them up and the weaker battery was dead before I got it back to the boat. The stronger battery lasted one season but never accepted a full charge. The starter motor takes a lot of current and needs a strong battery to work. It does not surprise me it does not budge using your existing batteries. You need at least one battery in good shape to run that starter.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2006 : 12:59:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Justin4192
 Pressing the starter switch doesn't do a thing, not even slowly. Does the starter require a certain voltage to even turn on?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Justin: The starter is probably activated by a solenoid that requires a certain amperage to operate--the starter motor needs considerably more. With the battery condition you described, I wouldn't be surprised that you got no response. With a little more juice, you might just get some clicking from the solenoid. Hope that's all it is.

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 08:10:00

Here's an update after working on the boat yesterday. The green light is on, it was just very difficult to see, so that’s good to go. The main problem I have now is the starter and alternator are still not working. The museum charged my batteries, but I’m guessing they are not in good shape since one battery is 7.9V and the other is 12.16V. The 7.9V battery has water levels that appear to be high, the 12.16V battery can use some distilled water. Still, I turned the selector switch to only the good battery and the starter would not budge. I ran the motor for probably 10-15 min and tested the battery voltage several times before, during, and after and it was always 12.16V - 12.18V. I then removed electrical tape on the outboard connector to get to the bare connection on the cord. I tested the voltage across that while using the bus bar as a ground. I didn’t write down the voltages, but it was in the 8 volt range. It did not change whether the outboard was running or not. I thought with the outboard running it would at least increase a bit, but nothing. I also thought that the voltage would read closer to what I measured off the battery (12.16V), not 8 volts. I had the selector switch turned only to that one good battery. Another thing is my knot/depth meter is not working again. It was not working when I bought the boat, but then when I took my first sail, I just unconnected and reconnected all the connectors and it worked. I tried that with no luck. The only electronics I do know that work are cabin lights, stern light, and the VHF turns on (not sure if is operational though). Could this be a grounding problem? Why would the voltage off the outboard wire be 8 volts? I think I measured the voltages off the switch and they were in the 8 volt range as well.
Here is a photo of my electrical panel:

That red cable on the far left is the outboard cable and I think the ground is connected directly to a battery. I didn’t think about the grounding issue until my way home, so I didn’t look into it. I’m wondering, if it turns out the ground to the outboard is connected to the dead battery, would this explain the 8 volts and all these problems?

Thanks for the help.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 10:39:18

The cable going to your outbord should not be the size of your battery cables. The black cable on the back of my battery switch is the positive lead and the similar black cable on the ground buss is the negative cable. They both terminate on studs in the wall between my sail locker and the fuel compartment. My outboard wires terminate on those studs in the fuel locker.

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 11:21:36

Frank, I'm a little confused. Are you saying that your wires are not grounded to the battery terminals? What are these studs you are mentioning on the fuel locker wall? I'm not sure what these are in my locker, but are these what you are talking about?

Does it appear the previous owner wired the engine incorrectly? What would be the proper size/gauge for the outboard cable?

Thanks,

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 11:40:30

Justin,
This is kind of hard to explain but I'll try. The voltage coming off the engine should be the same as the battery you have it hooked up to. They are virtually the same point and there should not be anything there to provide a voltage drop. If you are reading 8 volts it sounds to me like you are hooked up to your 7.9V battery. However if you are looking to see if the charging circuit is working you should be trying to read amps, not volts, and you need to hook the VOM with one side from the engine and the other to the battery. Essentially running the current through the VOM. Do not do this unless your VOM can handle at least 5 amps.

(II)-----------------{vom]-------------------IIIII
Engine ...Red lead.....VOM.....Black lead.......Battery

Regardless if you cannot charge your batteries to 13.6 volts they neeed to be replaced. Obviously the 8V battery is toast and the other will not handle a load for any appreciable amounht of time. You will save yourself a lot of headache and frustration if you get rid of both those batteries and buy at least one new one. Two if you can afford it. Trying to troubleshoot a DC electrical system that has bad batteries as its power source is at best a guessing game. I would suggest Costco as a souce for a relatively inexpensive deep cycle battery.

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 12:15:48

Thanks Joe, I figured the voltage should be the same at either point, but I thought I would at least see a slight increase in voltage when under charge. So, another thing I need to check that I just thought of is maybe the 12.15v battery was not reconnected properly and that would explain why I had ~8v measured at the switch and not 12v. I just assumed that when switched to battery 1 and nothing worked, it was the dead battery. I then switched to #2 and the lights turned on, but everything read 8 volts.
I have a very nice amp/volt/watt/amp hour meter that I use for my electric powered r/c planes and it can handle up to 100 amps, 60 volts, and 5000 watts, but the problem is I installed connectors that connect specically to that equipment.
Is there a difference between those marine deep cycle batteries you buy at WM and regular deep cycle batteries Costco sells? I took a photo of my batteries and it appears they were purchased in September of 2000. They are 550 cold cranking amps and 690 marine cranking amps each. I'll look into what Costco carries. I know WM has a sale right now and in their ad I think I saw a replacement was on sale for $100.

Edited by - Justin on 03/27/2006 12:55:34

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 12:41:43

Yeah there is a big difference between what Costco sells and what West marine sells. About $50 buck worth.

Seriously, any differences will not add up to twice the price. I have had my two on board for over two years and they are still running strong.
You should be able to jury rig some sort of connections for your meter using alligator clips or other genric connector. Maybe you have an old R/C battery you can cut the connector off. Necessity is the mother of invention.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 13:02:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Justin4192
 Frank, I'm a little confused. Are you saying that your wires are not grounded to the battery terminals? What are these studs you are mentioning on the fuel locker wall? I'm not sure what these are in my locker, but are these what you are talking about?

Does it appear the previous owner wired the engine incorrectly? What would be the proper size/gauge for the outboard cable?

Thanks,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, those are terminals for your leads from your motor to meet your leads from your ground bar and the output of your battery switch. The only thing going to your batteries are the lead to the grounding buss and possibly the lead from your charger, depending on where it is. On my 82, my charger was below the teak area in our two power wall photos. Mounted on the fiberglass. It had a lot of room to breath and it was wired to the buss bar for ground and the hot sides of the switch. The two power leads in my photo run along the port coaming area above the life jacket shelf and end on the terminal studs. My outboard wires terminate on the other side of the studs, in the fuel locker. They exit the fuel locker at the cutout down by the transom, on out a scupper and to the engine. The gugees seem to be consistant between the ob wires and the power wires.

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 14:12:40

Thanks Frank, I understand what you're saying now. Hopefully this week I'll get a new battery, maybe two and this weekend install them and get the OB wired correctly. I hope this fixes most of my electrical issues. I was planning to sail across the bay to my new slip this weekend, but I still haven't gotten my rigging untangled. I'm looking forward to the trip, plus I'm getting tired of driving 4 hours to see my boat.

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