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pull / pull steering failure

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Dkn420
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Response Posted - 03/24/2006 : 09:28:17

Arlyn: Thanks so much, it is raining here again...I will get to this as soon as the weather allows.

I sent a note to Ken at Edson asking for a price for a replacement "take-up eye" and he is sending one to me without charge...very nice of Edson, they have been very helpful...

Glad you started this thread. It would be interesting to hear from Jerry to see if he has had this issue and what degree of maintenance he has done on Pretty Penny II as his boat is kept at his dock and in the water all the time...

Also, only moving a battery may not be bad for those who do as I have a fuel tank in that space, so I will see how that goes.

Thanks again, Dan #727

Edited by - Dkn420 on 03/24/2006 09:32:00

welshoff
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Response Posted - 03/24/2006 : 09:53:12

Arlyn,

I have been looking into some type of modification while using the existing sheathed cableing. I would suggest using your rudder arm to acheive the added leverage, but would make the following change. Look at Edson part #824-12 or #824-17 (under the pull-pull steering components). I would eliminate the rudder stop portion of this bracket (as we don't have quadrants). This bracket can be mounted to the cockpit floor (spaced down as needed) and would provide a solid platform to attach the sheathed cables. Part of the problem with the existing system is the flex in the existing mounting bracket. This bracket is a cast piece of hardware and would be a very solid platform to attach the sheathed cables.

The difference in the brackets is only the width 12" or 17". I would speculate the 17" bracket would provide the needed room to allow full movement of the rudder arm with the extension you have fabricated. The cost of this bracket is around $130.00 depending on the width required.

What is the length of the rudder arm extension you provide or distance from the stern to where cables attach? I would like to mock up the rudder arm and see if the above brackets provide the needed clearance for a full stop to stop rotation of the rudder. Thanks.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2006 : 10:04:36

Dan, egads... moving a fuel tank to do some testing is above and beyond...

Your choice, you may wish to let us nail this thing down so your surgery is a one shot deal...

thanks

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 03/24/2006 10:06:04

Dkn420
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Response Posted - 03/24/2006 : 10:35:51

Arlyn: I'll take some photos of the stern area and pass them along, and you are probably correct about moving a fuel tank...it may be best to do things from the outside? Thanks again for all your help.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 03/24/2006 : 12:19:25

Will, the cast stop part was added to the small boat steering settup because the original system sometimes exceeded its designed travel and locked up. It was likely kept as a method to keep both rudder directions equal as another original complaint was that one way had more travel than the other.

Thanks for the awareness that Edson offers a wider cast bracket. At that price of almost half the open wire conversion, I can see why they wish to use the aluminum.

Yes, it could be bolted thru the fuel locker as the conversion does, which would avoid any need to relieve it.

I'm beginning to be skeptical the bracket offers enough travel for increasing the wheel travel to a reasonable value, but will wait results of a test to be sure. Very likely a new bracket will need bolted to the ceiling to gain the wheel movement needed. That will neccesitate longer wires which isn't that hard to do.

On the open wire conversion, the steering arm pin lies 4 inches foreward of the pin in the Edson steering arm and the slot extends 1/2" aft and 3 1/4" forward. The aft section is to allow play for the steering arm to be removed easily from the rudder and the forward section of course allows for the arc compensation.

The chain provided on a pull/pull system is four links short of allowing full travel for that steering arm extension and I'm unsure that the flex cable hookups at the base of the pedestal would allow adding more chain so I'm very want to think the extension would be limited to about three inches, which is about a 75% increase in wheel throw compared to the 125% with the conversion. I think the effect would be dramatic however. Many comments about the conversion outlined that the change was beyond expectations so I believe a 50-75% increase in leverage would be worthy.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 03/24/2006 12:21:48

frog0911
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Response Posted - 03/24/2006 : 22:10:15

I have not noticed any problems with the steering on PennyII, but every few months whenI check battery water I spray a little WD40 on the pin. I started this shortly after I got the boat because my steering had a great deal of slop in it. When I removed the bulkhead to adjust it I found the pin was tight so I WD'd it. I had the same problem with the pin that holds the arm to the rudder when I had the rudder replaced do to cracks so I WD'd that also.
Raul, our newest fleet member, has a clunk in his wheel every now and then a sticking pin my maybe his problem. When he gets back in town I will have to ask him to check it out.

Edited by - on

welshoff
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Response Posted - 03/25/2006 : 11:02:18

Arlyn,
I was looking at your upgrade system photos on your web site. I don't beleive the Edson bracket will provide enough travel for the rudder arm. Your overall bracket is 32" and the largest Edson had was 17" - about half of what we would need.

There are ways of adding just your rudder arm with some mods to the existing bracket, but then the existing cables would be too short for the new travel of the longer rudder arm. By the time you get through with all the added changes, you could have had your kit installed.

PLEASE NOTE:

The photos posted on your web site from C-angle on his installation have the original system cables installed by the factory incorrectly.

The bracket has an offset - the port side cable is higher than starboard. Every one with this system should check to ensure the port cable is on the top of the rudder arm and starboard is below the rudder arm. At least this will give you a straight pull with the cables. When you see the photos from C-Angels install, you will notice there is a lot of "slop" in the cables.

Compare that to the photos I posted earlier in this thread.
You can see what I am trying to explain.

Edited by - welshoff on 03/25/2006 11:07:01

moserd
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Response Posted - 03/25/2006 : 18:30:30

Very VERY interesting. I never noticed the offset of the bracket. Since my boat (817) has experienced a failure of a take-up eye I took a closer look at my configuration. Yes indeed my system is also connected up-side down. Seems like maybe there is some confusion at the factory. When I complete the corrective action suggested by Edson I plan on sending an informative email to Catalina. Maybe we can collectively save some new sailors a problem.

Edson is sending me a new rudder arm, a new pin and it seems that they are sending GREASE.

Thanks so much for pointing out the offset issue! :)

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 03/25/2006 : 19:46:59

Wil

I noticed that a few months ago when I first saw the pic... and figured he had it disconnected and then simply put it back together for the pic and got it wrong. Now that someone else says his is installed that way, is interesting.

As to the bracket.... no question that it will not produce the range of movement that the conversion offers... but the question is and remains can 50% increase be achieved with it?

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
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Response Posted - 03/26/2006 : 10:37:38

Aryln,
I have the information you requested.
There are many pictures and I also have several new questions for you.
I will send you an e-mail and I can post the results to the forum later.
I don't want to post a bunch of useless stuff to the forum if it doesn't impact the final solution.

My cables were also installed upside-down and nut just past the cotter pin (maximum slack).
The good news is the eye-bolts are straight and the pivot shaft is stiff but not stuck.

Does anyone have a correct factory-installation?

Russ (#793) (russ.johnson @ comcast.net)

Upside-down cables (Factory-installed)

Correctly-installed cables (with slack removed)

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 03/26/2006 10:48:22

ClamBeach
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Response Posted - 03/26/2006 : 11:16:22

For what it's worth... a comment on cable clamp installation.

In several of the photos, the cable clamps appear to be installed incorrectly. The 'saddle' (clamp) should be on the 'long side' of the cable and the 'u bolt' on the 'short side'.

A good way to remember this is an old riggers saying:
"The saddle goes on the horse, not the pony".

Dunno if it makes a huge difference in a lightly loaded application like this... but in 'heavy' rigging it does.

Edited by - on

sterngucker
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Response Posted - 03/26/2006 : 15:15:01

Just wanted to confirm the fact that I had NOT disassembled <i>C Angel's </i>factory installed steering cables when I took the picture before installing Arlyn's steering mod. Now that it has been pointed out, egads!, it is so obvious that the cables are installed incorrectly. Ignorance is not bliss. I am going to contact the dealer so that he knows to check future boats for this error also.

P.S. I have some spare factory steering cable parts available on a first come first served basis. I do not intend to go back to the original setup.

Edited by - sterngucker on 03/27/2006 03:26:37

Russ.Johnson
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Response Posted - 03/26/2006 : 17:09:41

Charlie, I'll take them. I'm sending you an e-mail.
Russ (#793)

Edited by - on

moserd
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Response Posted - 03/26/2006 : 18:11:30

I went out to my boat today (817) to remove the rudder steering arm in order to sent it back to Edson for failure analysis. I think I am finally putting the pieces together and have an idea of why things are failing.

First of all a little background is in order. I have an existing issue with a crack (series of cracks) in my original rudder. Catalina and my dealer have been just great and have provided me with a brand new rudder. Due to weather I have not had a chance to paint this new rudder nor mount it. This new rudder came with almost all off the new hardware installed including a new rudder arm. This arm includes the outboard pin but does not include the inboard vertical pivot pin.

Edson is currently sending me a new arm with a new pivot pin in an attempt to solve the issue that my pin will not rotate (at all!) resulting in abroken take-up eye.

I had a real hard time removing the outboard pin and had to use WD40 and a hammer to drive it out.

Every since I received the new rudder I have wondered why it's pin fits so nicely but I never made the connection; UNTIL:

When I got home I took the NEW pin and attempted to insert into the OLD arm. This simply would not go (without a hammer, no I didn't beat on the new one! :)). Next I attempted to insert the NEW pin in the NEW arm and it goes very nicely. Hmmm, I next took the OLD pin and attempted to insert into the NEW arm and it also fits. Hmmm...

I next tried to insert the OLD vertical inboard pin (still stuck in the OLD arm) into the NEW arm. Yes, you guessed it; it fits just fine.

A naked eye visual examination of the two arms reveals that the OLD arm has holes that are noticably smaller than the NEW arm. Boy I wish I had a micrometer so I could measure it.

So, it appears that there are some rudder arms out there that contain holes that are TOO SMALL.

I am sure that there is more to come, I'll keep everyone up to date.

Don

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 03/26/2006 : 21:03:01

Russ has supplied the information necessary to determine that a rudder arm extension can achieve about forty percent leverage gain with the stock pull/pull settup.

I'll be shipping him parts for a test to determine the simplicity of installation and performance evaluation.

Edited by - on

frog0911
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Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 15:08:14

I guess having dumb luck is better than no luck at all. I have been lubing the cable pin since I got the boat because when I adjusted the cable length the pin was tight and hard to turn. I did not notice the cables being installed incorrectly since I never felt any drag or hard steering. Today I went out and sure enough the cables were install backwards. Fixed that and even with out the lub it works smooth. I lubed it anyway since I was in there and it sure makes a hugh difference.

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
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Response Posted - 03/29/2006 : 15:25:02

Arlyn,
I just sent you an e-mail.
Let me know what you think.
Thanks, Russ (#793)

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 04/07/2006 : 17:00:18

A note for those who may have been interested in the result of the talked about test of a simple mod to improve the pull/pull steering linkage. Russ and I have been communicating and I've finally got the parts ready to send to him Monday.

If it works out, the current bracket and cables would continue to be used but the bracket would be extended forward by use of longer bolts and spacers. A steering arm extension would be bolted on obtaining arc compensation to cure any deadband at rudder center and 40% leverage gain.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 04/08/2006 08:47:38

Dkn420
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Response Posted - 04/07/2006 : 17:35:31

I will be looking forward to the results...Dan #747

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
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Response Posted - 04/21/2006 : 01:56:29

Arlyn,
I just sent you and e-mail regarding the test.
Russ

Edited by - on

moserd
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Response Posted - 04/21/2006 : 13:23:41

Arlyn,

Could you send me the result info? I have been able to get my system back together and it works fine for now. However as soon as the warrenty period is over AND I find some money I may be interested in the upgrade. Funny thing is (not funny ha,ha) the system works better now than it ever has. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that it is no longer installed upside down AND the pin rotates!

Don

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 04/21/2006 : 13:51:14

Don,

A progress report: Russ installed the rudder arm extension and set the aluminum bracket on collar extenders to move the bracket forward to align the cable at a proper position. Doing so, he had to relieve the aluminum bracket to allow for the swing of the rudder arm and in doing felt and I agreed that the amount needed removed likely weakened the bracket.

Plans are to make a new mounting bracket so that it can be mounted at the transom as the original but will have arms that extend fore about two inches further.

That I know of, he has not sailed the boat yet to make a leverage comparison.

I can appreciate the difference that hooking the cables up properly has made.

Edited by - on

Dkn420
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Response Posted - 04/29/2006 : 14:50:02

A question for all having trouble with the take up eye's? Is the stainless steel pin that goes through the rudder arm in the first hole from the forward end? It appears that the cable when straight is in line with the second hole from the end. I found the pin frozen when I went in to replace the take up eyes, so that must have been the problem...Edson has been very helpful in the entire process...Did anyone send the rudder arm with frozen pin to Edson for evaluation? Can you share the result? Thanks, Dan #727

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 04/29/2006 : 17:45:44

Dan,

I'd be surprised if the problem is not simply galvanic corrosion between the disimilar metals. A coating of greese on the pin will likely go a long way in avoiding the pin freezing in the rudder arm.

Russ had shared with me that the forward most hole is ahead of the cable center line and that makes sense. As the arm swings there is no arc compensation to avoid varying degrees of cable tightness so one way to lessen the center rudder loosness is to balance the arc swing forward and aft of the center line of the cable. The holes are one inch apart and measuring at rudder lock, it will likely be found that the pin is one inch aft of cable center for a total of two inch variation.

The forward hole should be retained.

This is the challenge that Russ and I are working on at the moment... finding the simplest way to gain a little leverage, provide arc compensation and do it with mostly the stock settup. To do that, the cable center line needs moved forward two inches.

The most recent atempt had Russ adding standoffs and moving the bracket forward but that necessitated some relief work on the bracket to deal with the rudder arm and the amount needed removed was excessive.

It appears that the simplest route is likely to do similar to the conversion to open cables, use a ceiling mounted bracket but that depends upon Russ's test to determine that the extra leverage and arc compensation are worthful.

If so, he will hollar his results and a drawing will be provided for the mod and likely I will offer the rudder arm extension and maybe a bracket, though Russ is playing with possibility that the current bracket will work relocated to the ceiling of the compartment.

Edited by - on

Dkn420
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Response Posted - 04/29/2006 : 20:28:45

Arlyn: Thanks for your insight and counsel...Will keep watching and updating the progress from Nor Cal...Dan #727

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