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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Someone pulling my leg?

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/03/2002 : 09:36:54

I removed the to-hulls and didn't find even a speck of oxidation on the brass pipes! I thought to myself - is this an inside joke that these guys are playing on some unsuspecting lubber <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> ? Anyway, I wouldn't have known the condition of these pipes until I removed them (or found OJ at the bottom of the lake.)
I was concerned about the condition of the fiberglass around the thru-hull holes so I filled them with epoxy and high-density filler and redrilled them with a hole saw. I'm also coating the edges of this new hole with 2000E.
You guys weren't pulling my leg, were you <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> ?

Edited by - on

jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2002 : 10:44:00

I don't think the design/construction flaw of the infamous to-hull is necessarily contingent on the oxidation level of the brass pipe. Certainly if the pipe were corroded it would lessen the contact/bond area between itself and the fiberglass hull, however, even a nice shiny new piece of pipe could break free from the bond and work itself loose, depending on how hard/often it was turned/twisted.

Personally, I put a threaded collar around the dry side of my to-hull pipe, (a 3" diameter washer and lock nut), flattened the 'volcano' with a dremel so that the collar sat flush to it, and epoxied it in place. I was in the water already, when I read all the info on C25 to-hull's. Installing a real mushroom-type throughhull wasn't an option at the time. Knock on teak, its still holding tight.

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2002 : 12:34:46

Nope we wouldn't pull your leg about something that could cause the loss of your boat. The original to hull is a weak cheap and poor idea and Catalinas weakes point. But Ill let you decide. A picture is worth a thousand words. What do you think my chances would have been next winter. Im in the water all year. 1983 C-25 galley drain.<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dd00b3127cce9d5f16f68cc30000005410" border=0>

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2002 : 15:47:09

The to-hulls on my boat appear to be fairly solid, so far (knock on fiberglass). But considering the construction method and the consequences of a failure, changing them to thru-hulls is my #1 project for next winter. No benefit in courting Disaster.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 11:30:28

With all due respect: I have '78 Cat with to-hulls. IMHO, they are certainly NOT a Cat's weakest point. Carry a few wooden plugs to stop holes below the waterline. One is MUCH more likely to sink any boat because of poor clamps or hoses than the to-hulls. Certainly I'll keep inspecting them, but I have other work to do on my boat than this

Sometimes I think that the "warnings" on this forum are overstated: i.e. the swing keel paranoia that sometimes abounds. Certainly, it's good to teach people how to maintain a boat, but sometimes a person considering a C25 could get the opinion that these boats are all just a second or two from sinking. 19 years with C25 swinger tells me differently... Don't get me wrong; it's good to suggest upgrades and let people know of potential problems, but let's stop suggesting that these boats are junk. It's just not true!

Respectfully,
Gary on Encore! #685

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1768 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 11:59:05

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
With all due respect: I have '78 Cat with to-hulls. IMHO, they are certainly NOT a Cat's weakest point. Carry a few wooden plugs to stop holes below the waterline. One is MUCH more likely to sink any boat because of poor clamps or hoses than the to-hulls. Certainly I'll keep inspecting them, but I have other work to do on my boat than this

Sometimes I think that the "warnings" on this forum are overstated: i.e. the swing keel paranoia that sometimes abounds. Certainly, it's good to teach people how to maintain a boat, but sometimes a person considering a C25 could get the opinion that these boats are all just a second or two from sinking. 19 years with C25 swinger tells me differently... Don't get me wrong; it's good to suggest upgrades and let people know of potential problems, but let's stop suggesting that these boats are junk. It's just not true!

Respectfully,
Gary on Encore! #685

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I'll weigh in on your side Gary ... although we're likely to take a beating. I only have one to-hull to worry about, and I've inspected, poked and prodded it a hundred times ... it would take a massive beating with a sledge hammer to do it any harm. As far as the swing keel is concerned, replacing the cable and turning ball was my first priority, and that's done. Now it's on to the running rigging and a bunch of other stuff. Yes, I'm going to replace the to-hull with a thru-hull, and maybe even before I get the boat in the water ... but I'm not losing sleep over it.

I have to agree with the spirit of your post ... the C-25 is built like a tank, but there are certain maintenance items that are more important than others.

Having said all that, it's time for us to get in the defensive crouch ... here it comes!

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 12:16:24

I didn't mean to sound like the to-hulls could fall out at a moments notice. They are solid (I check them often). It's just that I've done most of the other upgrades and maintenance, so that project has finally moved up to the #1 position on the list. Also, it seems like a fairly easy upgrade. Don't want to sound alarmist, the Catalina is a very solid boat.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 12:16:31

I've witnessed product design and production life cycles and can empathize with Catalina to a degree. In a previous career we released new product to market with software and hardware improvements already being developed. It's pretty tough to design and build every aspect to ideal standards when you need to start generating revenue.
It was the hidden unknown that was always lurking in my subconscious that drove me to upgrade. "Gee, I tapped on it and it did't move, but did I just further weaken an already deteriorating part?" Then I'd remember seeing someone elses C-25 mast sticking out of the water at the moorings two years ago <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> .
This conversion is a pretty painless project in return for the piece of mind you gain <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> .

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 12:40:02

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
... but I'm not losing sleep over it.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Buzz, I envision you rolling over in your sleep while on Freya and your arm splashes into water that's half way up the settees <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> .

Edited by - OJ on 06/06/2002 12:40:41

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 13:40:46

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
With all due respect:...

Sometimes I think that the "warnings" on this forum are overstated: i.e. the swing keel paranoia that sometimes abounds. Certainly, it's good to teach people how to maintain a boat, but sometimes a person considering a C25 could get the opinion that these boats are all just a second or two from sinking. 19 years with C25 swinger tells me differently... Don't get me wrong; it's good to suggest upgrades and let people know of potential problems, but let's stop suggesting that these boats are junk. It's just not true!
Respectfully,
Gary on Encore! #685
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Thank you Gary that needed to be said....I Fully Agree with your comments....Now get the heck off the soapbox I want my turn.

If any of you look at boats from that era you will find many to-hulls with gate valves (both not considered code anymore but at one time were fully acceptable) and it you'll find them in numerous different manufacturers boats. It doesn't mean Catalina was weak in its design, that was the design of the times for many companies.

I think we all know that the warnings are given because we really don't want a fellow owner to be swimming instead of sailing. They are meant as friendly advisories. But...What we have to realize is that most of us, myself included, aren't Hemingway. Sometimes the tone in which we write a post isn't necessarily how it is absorbed by another reader/member.

We also have to remember that just because it happens to one person's boat, it doesn't mean it will happen to all of ours ...but the chance does exist. As stated above, we need to take these incidents as warnings, not gospel mandatory changes. Everyones circumstances are different.

The fact of the matter remains that out of 5 or 6 thousand boats built less than one percent have had cable failure or to hull problems. And I have yet to meet the to-hull guy...

Granted, these are problems that we need to be aware of and should not take lightly, but IMHO we should be preaching intelligent inspection and annual due dilligence, not doom and gloom.

Oh and Buzz, you can stop crouching now I don't think anyone is gonna hit you.

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b1ce23b3127cce9b043565af3d0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - Duane Wolff on 06/06/2002 13:54:37

Edited by - Duane Wolff on 06/06/2002 13:57:24

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2002 : 17:23:19

If I kept my boat on a trailer I would not have worried about the to hulls. However I keep my boat in the water (salt) all year. I have seen the salt water around my boat freez over twice. I was concerned that if it froze outside the hull it might be freezing the water traped just inside the too hull before the valve. When water freezes in a confined space it tends to rupture whatever is surounding it. Thus the reason for so many freez related sinkings in the winter. Just food for thought. I doubt they would fail in warm weather. Bronze was the only way to realy insure my boat would be safe in a winter storm while I was safe at home.

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.

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andy p
1st Mate

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55 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2002 : 07:59:14

The Catalina design is considered acceptable from what I've read. Of course some boats in the fleet are getting on in years so it can't hurt to do some investigating down there. But I don't think it at all likely that a C25 could sink because of the design of the through-hulls. The only threat is from freezing and that affects all the plumbing on any boat subject to such conditions.

Edited by - on

IndyJim
Navigator

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USA
130 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2002 : 01:56:32

Okay Skippers, I've read the thread and now I'm gonna show my absolute Catalina stupidity. (Just when I was getting comfortable with my new vessel) I thought I had gone from bow to stern learning all the "important" aspects of the C-25.

Where do I check this to hull? The previous owner had done lots of upgrades, so I want to check this mysterious point of discussion. Do I have to hull or a through-hull? Do I have to have her on the trailer or in the sling to check the to hull or through hull?

Boy, do I feel like an idiot. I'm not new to sailing, just to all the "Catalina-isms".

And thanks for the re-assurance about swing keels too! I know the writings are done with good and informative intentions but I was beginning to think I was sitting on a time bomb with a swing keel beneath me. It made me paranoid to crank her up and down. I kinda got the impression that the swing keel was an Achilles Heel or design flaw on the C-25's. Now I know the percentage of "swinger" disasters are few. Thanks! :O

I love my boat. But now I've gotta find that "to hull" or "through hull" to avoid searching for my boat on the bottom of the lake. Am I going to be crawling around down in the portside seat locker again?
:)

IndyJim
"Itza Dew Sea"
TR/SK #4525

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2002 : 02:09:47

Indy,

On my C25, one is located beneath the stove and the other is under the V-berth. Go to this link and click on "seacocks".
http://home.attbi.com/~c25sailor/projects.html

Don Lucier, North Star
C25 SR/FK

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