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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Tillerpilot question

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/11/2006 : 23:35:31

I have a Simrad TP-22 tillerpilot (Simrad was formerly Navico), purchased and installed in 2004. It is connected to a Garmin GPSMAP 168 GPS unit. In "NAV" mode, the tillerpilot sometimes loses connectivity with the GPS while following a Route or Track, at random intervals, and for no apparent reason, and an alarm tone starts ringing, until I reset the tillerpilot. Also, when the boat arrives at a GPS waypoint, the tillerpilot always fails to bring the boat onto the new course; it continues to steer the previous leg's course. If I reset the tillerpilot, it will then steer the boat onto the new course, unless the boat has deviated too far away from the GPS route, in which case the alarm beeping starts, and the tillerpilot may wrench the tiller hard-a-port and then go off-line.
My question: Aren't tillerpilots supposed to follow a GPS route and automatically tutn the boat onto the new course as the boat passes each waypoint, or am I expecting functionality here that this tillerpilot may not have been not designed for? The unit otherwise seems to do everything else okay; it steers the set course from it's internal compass very accurately, it just doesn't seem to cooperate with my Garmin 168 GPS. The owner's manual that came with it was not very detailed, so I am not sure if the unit is actually functioning properly or not.

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25WK/TR Mk. IV #5857 "Quiet Time"
Folsom Lake, CA

"You might get there faster in a powerboat, but in a sailboat, you're already there"

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2006 : 08:47:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by lcharlot
 In "NAV" mode, the tillerpilot sometimes loses connectivity with the GPS while following a Route or Track, at random intervals, and for no apparent reason, and an alarm tone starts ringing, until I reset the tillerpilot.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Could this be the result of a large cross track error?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by lcharlot
 ...Also, when the boat arrives at a GPS waypoint, the tillerpilot always fails to bring the boat onto the new course; it continues to steer the previous leg's course...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My Raymarine autopilot is specifically designed to NOT change course automatically at a waypoint. Instead, the autopilot sounds an alarm when at the waypoint, but maintains the present course. Once the waypoint is acknowledged by the operator, the autopilot will initiate a change to the new course. This is probably a safety feature so the boat doesn't autotack while the captain is sitting on the can.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2006 : 23:16:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier

...Could this be the result of a large cross track error?

My Raymarine autopilot is specifically designed to NOT change course automatically at a waypoint...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Don. You might be right. I emailed my question to Customer Support at Simrad but have not heard back from them yet. I haven't been able to clear this matter up for myself because the owner's manual was one of the poorest, and least detailed, that I've ever seen for an electronic gadget costing as much as this one did. This might have been excusable if the manual had been written in some Asian country like Taiwan or Singapore where English is not the native language, but this tillerpilot was manufactured in England! Hooking it up to my GPS was a nightmare and took an entire day, as the wiring instructions in the manual were nearly incomprehensible. The cable from the tillerpilot has four different data wires (in addition to the red and black 12 volt power leads). Only 2 of these small wires carry the NEMA data sentences from the GPS to the tillerpilot, and I ended up having to try at least three different combinations before I found what I hope is the correct pair. What the other two wires do, I am at a complete loss. They might be for connecting a wind direction instrument so that the tillerpilot can steer to a user set apparent wind angle, but I am not sure as I don't have wind instruments installed. The frustrating thing is that the unit seems to connect to the GPS, and will steer a GPS route for a while, but usually no more than 5 or 6 minutes before it goes offline and that alarm sounds. As for your suggestion that this could be due to excessive cross track error, who knows? The owner's manual makes no mention of that, or any other designed-in error conditions.
The bottom line is that the unit is only reliable to steer a course from it's own built-in fluxgate compass (it does that quite well). I can't get it to follow a GPS route for more than a few minutes, and the apparent fact that it may have been designed to ignore course changes at waypoints is a big disappointment; the salesman at West Marine had led me to believe it would auto-steer a multi-leg GPS route. He probably didn't know what he was talking about, and it's my own fault for assuming that he did.

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2006 : 23:46:49

I have a reply from Simrad that might provide a solution to the problems with my tillerpilot:

"The TP22 requires the following NMEA sentences to steer correctly:
APB
BWR or BWC (not both)
RMB
RMC
If too many sentences are being sent by the Garmin it can get confused.
Try turning off all the unneeded sentences. That should clear up the route
following.
-Simrad Yachting USA
Product Support Dept.
19210 33rd Ave W
Lynnwood, WA 98036
1-800-426-5565 "

Looking at the user manual for my Garmin 168, it outputs at least 15 different NMEA sentences, three of which are "Garmin Proprietary", and another four that are Status messages not needed by the tillerpilot. The next time I am out at the boat, I will try disabling the Proprietary and Status messages as Simrad suggests, and see if that clears up the problem.

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welshoff
Captain

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USA
253 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2006 : 10:56:16

Lary,
Sorry, kind of long.

I have a simrad WP30, although it is a wheel pilot I would bet the wiring is simalar to the tiller pilot (both Simrad units). You could also go to Simrad website and down load the manual for reference. I can't comment to the reason it does not stay on the waypoint you select?

Hope this helps, here are the color codes to the wires:
Red +12v DC
Black 0v
Blue NMEA Common
Yellow NMEA Data
(Green Ext Compass)
(White Ext Compass)

Note, some additional comments concerning NEMA connections from the manual:

"It should be noted, that some manufacturers’ equipment
does not have a dedicated Common connection.
In this case, the DATA connection will usually
be labelled NMEA OUT, and the NMEA Common
connection on the Wheelpilot (Blue) should be connected
directly to 0v (Black). If in any doubt, refer to the manufacturer, or Simrad technical support for advice."

In my case the "Blue NEMA Common" goes to ground wire from the GPS and the "Yellow NEMA Data" goes to my NEMA Out wire from my GPS.

Also, some comments concerning waypoints and routes from the manual:

"On arrival at the target waypoint an intermittent
alarm will sound. As a safety feature to avoid an
unexpected course change, the next waypoint will
not be automatically loaded until the NAV key is
pressed. When the vessel reaches the final waypoint,
the Wheelpilot will continue its current
course under Compass mode."

Additional information on the required NEMA Sentances:

The NMEA0183 information required for full functionality whilst in Nav mode is as follows:
– Cross track error
– Bearing to destination waypoint
– Arrival at waypoint indication
– Magnetic Variation

XTE = Data Cross Track Error and Arrival At Waypoint
BWC = Bearing To Destination Waypoint and Arrival At Waypoint (Great Circle)
BWR = Bearing To Destination Waypoint and Arrival At Waypoint (Rhumb Line)
APA = Cross Track Error, Bearing To Destination Waypoint and Arrival At Waypoint
APB = Cross Track Error, Bearing To Destination Waypoint and Arrival At Waypoint
RMA = Speed Over Ground (SOG) & Magnetic Variation
RMB = Cross Track Error, Bearing To Destination Waypoint and Arrival At Waypoint
RMC = Speed Over Ground (SOG) & Magnetic Variation

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2006 : 07:14:20

Larry,

Willaim brings up a great point concerning the special wiring that may be required for the Garmin. With my Autohelm, I had to wire my Garmin a special way, which was not in the manual, to get it to read the NMEA data properly. You may, as William states, have to do the same.

Thanks for the info William!

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2006 : 19:23:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by welshoff
 
Hope this helps, here are the color codes to the wires:
Red +12v DC
Black 0v
Blue NMEA Common
Yellow NMEA Data
(Green Ext Compass)
(White Ext Compass)

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think my tillerpilot wiring harness was the same color codes, and if I remember correctly, I used only the blue and yellow wires to connect to the GPS; the green and white wires were tied off and not used.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
"On arrival at the target waypoint an intermittent
alarm will sound. As a safety feature to avoid an
unexpected course change, the next waypoint will
not be automatically loaded until the NAV key is
pressed.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmm. This pretty much describes how my tillerpilot behaves! I guess it is behaving as it was designed to, and my expectation that it would automatically change course at waypoints is what is faulty! I just wish the owner's manual that was packaged with my unit had been more specific. My owner's manual didn't spell out anything like what William has quoted above.

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