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Combatting ethanol fuel problems

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Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/03/2006 : 08:06:40

[url="http://www.boatus.com/news/e10_0706.htm"]BoatUS magazine recent article on ethanol [/url]

It was suggested that this informative article on ethanol in fuel should be posted in the general section for all to read, and so here it is.

Steve

Steve Madden
'87 WK #5668 "Lorica"
Fort Myers, FL

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2006 : 09:14:46

Since I live in upstate N.Y. I believe my Honda 8 hp, four stroke has been running on 10% ethanol since the begiining of May. I just used up the initial two gallons of gasoline purchased in early May.
I have had no problems with engine operation and no visible signs of water. I believe my Honda fuel tank is plastic. I don't use the motor that often, just in and out of the slip, I do however try to
run it wide open at least once a week for a short duration......

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2006 : 17:02:09

Good article Steve,
Thanks,
Dan

Edited by - on

DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2006 : 07:33:23

No problems here, either. But now you have me worring about the spare tank I filled prior to our crossing to our summer mooring. Is it sitting in the garage getting contaminated? Does anyone know if adding Stabil would be beneficial?
Perhaps I'll just drain it into the car tank and refill it.

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2006 : 12:13:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DanM
 ...Perhaps I'll just drain it into the car tank and refill it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Probably not a bad idea.

Steve

Edited by - Lightnup on 08/04/2006 12:13:51

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2006 : 13:28:40

I'm installing a fuel filter/water separator with a clear cup on the bottom, on the inside of the transom this very day--in preparation for delivering Passage to her new owners. The Honda dealer here is testing a new additive that's supposed to be hot stuff--I'll report whatever I hear. Mechanics around here are going crazy (and getting rich) from this fuel problem.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2006 : 15:05:01

Regarding fuel filters:<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...installing a fuel filter/water separator with a clear cup on the bottom, on the inside of the transom...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's exactly what I did a boat ago when I got completely fed up with the D-cell sized inline fuel filters not stopping water from getting into the carb float bowl. I think the filter I installed is either a Racor, or a close copy. The mount part looks like a car or truck spin-on oil filter remote adapter (used to relocate inaccessable spin-on filters). The filter element is a cylinder the size of a large oil filter and looks like the open end of a spin-on oil filter at both ends. There's a clear water and sediment trap bowl which screws onto the bottom of the filter element. The sediment bowl has a drain at its lowest point operated by a thumb wheel. The bowl (not counting the volume of the filter element) holds probably 5 to 10 times the amount of water it would take to overwhelm the inline filters I used before. Since installing this filter, I haven't had any problems with fuel tank crud making it to the engine.

-- Leon Sisson

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2006 : 16:42:05

That's the one--Racor. A Honda mechanic told me to get a fairly big one--they make much smaller ones supposedly for engines like ours... Water settles by gravity and can be seen in the clear bowl, and then tapped out of the bottom with the little thumbwheel valve. I suspect the tank should be moved to a level above the filter before opening the tap--otherwise it might just let the fuel syphon back into the tank.

It's installed now, but I'm having trouble priming it (getting it to fill using the squeeze bulb).

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/04/2006 16:47:24

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2006 : 23:34:02

Here in California, if I remember correctly, there was a brief period in the late 70's or early '80's when E-20 "Gasohol" (20% ethanol) was sold by some refiners. This was in response to California's stricter-than-Federal emmission controls that mandated catalytic converters in our new cars several years before most other states. Catalytic converters require unleaded gas, so the refiners quickly had to find anti-knock additives to replace tetraethyl lead. The most popular compounds were MTBE, Methanol, and Ethanol. Methanol is too toxic and was not available in large enough quantities to be a viable fuel additive for California's huge vehicle fleet, so was dropped, leaving MTBE and ethanol. Adding 20% ethanol to the gas in vehicles of that era, mostly 60's and 70's models, turned out to be a disaster. It was quickly discovered that many manufacturers of fuel system components, especially carburetors and fuel pumps, were using gaskets and seals that were not chemically compatible with ethanol, leading to fuel leaks, engine fires, and engine damage from dissolved o-rings gumming up the valves. Gasohol disappeared from most retail gas stations after a raft of lawsuits over fuel leaks, leaving MTBE as the "standard" octane booster until 2003, when the ground water contamination scandal erupted. Now we are back to ethanol. Supposedly, cars built after the '70's use non-alcohol-soluable o-rings and gaskets, and I assume marine engines do as well, but the aspect of ethanol as a moisture-attractor is worrysome. I use a Tempo 6-gallon steel gas tank in Quiet Time, and now I think I will replace it with a polypropylene tank as soon as I can find one that fits in the tank locker.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2006 : 09:29:09

Here's a camera-phone shot of my new installation (for the buyers of Passage)--a Racor filter.

It should keep any water and particles out of the precious little Honda. Every mechanic and dealer I've talked to strongly recommends this, especially for any 4-stroke. (The carb jets are smaller.) They also recommend fuel stabilizer, but not the kind that's alcohol-based--apparently that exacerbates the water-attraction problem. (I'm not sure which stabilizers aren't.) BTW, it took two 4" bolts, which not every store has, to thru-bolt it on the transom.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/06/2006 09:35:44

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2006 : 13:56:06

What implications are there for us lucky SOB's who still have a two stroke engine?

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2006 : 17:01:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
 What implications are there for us lucky SOB's who still have a two stroke engine?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I only have one anecdote... A friend with a Johnson 50 (2-stroke) had water-in-gas problems, causing the engine to stall at low RPMs. He could start it by cranking up the throttle, but he couldn't throttle down enough to shift--a similar problem to what I had a week or so ago. He managed to pump most of the water out of his tank, but the ethanol could easily replenish it one of these days. I think the separator is de rigeur these days.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/06/2006 17:02:26

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2006 : 18:19:56

Hmmmm?...About three weeks ago, I was motoring in the marina channel coming back from an afternoon sail, when all of a sudden my 2 stroke Merc just died. I yanked and yanked on the pull starter trying to get it going, but no such luck. I quickly went to plan B (popped the furler) to get me back to my slip. Back at the slip, I tried starting it again and again, checked the usual culprits (fuel level, filter, spark, etc) but didn't find anything amiss.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 ...A friend with a Johnson 50 (2-stroke) had water-in-gas problems, causing the engine to stall at low RPMs. He could start it by cranking up the throttle, but he couldn't throttle down enough to shift--a similar problem to what I had a week or so ago...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I did discover that I could start the motor if I manually moved the throttle linkeage to about half throttle, but as soon as I let it go to idle, it promptly quit again. I started thinking maybe it was a fuel pressure problem or a clogged low speed jet. I first removed the fuel pump and it still looked like new. I disassembled the carburetor and it too looked like new without any signs of debris or contamination. I did find that the float needle was sticking in the closed position, it wouldn't drop out of its hole, but had to be pulled out. There were no obvious signs of gunk, but I cleaned the needle and passage anyway, and it moved freely again. After reassembly, the motor started up as if nothing ever happened.

Was the float needle the cause of the problem?...I don't know, but it has been running perfectly for the past three weeks (on the same tank of gas). This is the first problem I've had with this motor (outside of running out of gas

) in 5 years and this ever growing talk about Ethanol has me wondering.

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2006 : 18:27:40

Wonder if there's a way to mount a smaller Racor (or other brand) inside the fuel tank locker so it doesn't occupy (and, in my opinion, detract from) precious cockpit space. Although my 6-gal tank doesn't leave a lot of room for extras in the locker.

Dave - Is the reason the Honda mechanic told you get a bigger filter for Passage was so that you didn't have to change it/empty it as often?

Steve

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2006 : 08:06:29

Apparently it is better to day-trade than to burn.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2006 : 08:16:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Lightnup
 Dave - Is the reason the Honda mechanic told you get a bigger filter for Passage was so that you didn't have to change it/empty it as often?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
His opinion was that the larger filter would do a better job of letting water settle out, as well as providing a multiple of the filtering surface. I had already bought a smaller one at that marina, and when I asked him about my difficulty inscrewing the filter can, he said, "Well, first of all, wrong model!"

With a 6-gallon Tempo, there isn't a model that fits in the cockpit fuel locker. You could probably do it with a 3-gallon... I don't feel like that location under the tiller obstructs anything--it's not a good place for knees to begin with. My feeling also is that the filter makes the boat look like her owner is (or was) a pretty smart guy... The SPO if you will.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/07/2006 08:19:58

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2006 : 18:30:07

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2006 : 20:48:34

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Laugh now..... Dont' come crying to me later...

My work here is done.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/07/2006 20:49:25

joegeiger
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2006 : 13:03:03

In Rhode Island we've been having the same issues. I've noticed I can run my motor at low idle only if the choke is out. I had to raise the idle a bit to keep it from stalling but that was only a temporary solution and it is still snorting and running rough. I'm going to try some carb & choke cleaner to see if it cleans out the carb and I've already replaced my fuel filter... if not I'll have to take the motor off and have the carb rebuilt at the shop (not an easy task or cheap). My service guy told me they've had more carb rebuilds this year than the last 3 combined. They are recommending StartTron Gas Treatment by Starbrite Products (wwwstarbrite.com) to help eliminate the water build up problems. I don't really want to put one of those Racor filters on my transom... There's got to be a better way.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2006 : 13:30:57

Last season, a fellow sailor was having intermittent problems with his Honda OB and couldn't pinpoint the cause. He started putting Sta-Bil in his fuel tank every time he filled up, not just at the end of the season, and he hasn't had an OB problem since.

[url="http://www.goldeagle.com/sta-bil/products.htm"]Sta-Bil Fuel Stabilizer:[/url]

• America’s top selling fuel stabilizer keeps fuel fresh for quick, easy starts after storage.
• Removes water to prevent corrosion and cleans carburetors and fuel injectors. 
• Protects engine from gum, varnish, rust, and corrosion.
• Prolongs engine life.
• Eliminates need to drain fuel before storage.
• For all 2 cycle and 4 cycle gasoline and diesel engines.

I may follow his lead as a preventative measure.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2006 : 05:05:24

I was serious about the fuel bulb problem being a potential source of failure. The ethanol has been known to attack the rubber sometimes causing the bulbs to crumble, but even if they only soften they can cause an engine to lose prime and stall.

It's happened to a few in my marina causing unexplained stalls until the problem was recognized.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2006 : 07:39:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by oldsalt
 The ethanol has been known to attack the rubber sometimes causing the bulbs to crumble, but even if they only soften they can cause an engine to lose prime and stall.

It's happened to a few in my marina causing unexplained stalls until the problem was recognized.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
...and then what

Edited by - on

DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2006 : 07:48:49

Thanks for the link to the Sta-Bil site, Don. After reading the FAQ's, I'll not try to treat the two month old gas. It does claim to clean carbs and jets and I also noticed that it is recommended for 10% ethanol.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2006 : 18:45:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by oldsalt
 The ethanol has been known to attack the rubber sometimes causing the bulbs to crumble, but even if they only soften they can cause an engine to lose prime and stall.

It's happened to a few in my marina causing unexplained stalls until the problem was recognized.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
...and then what

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And then they (the powerboaters) changed their primer bulbs and the problem went away.

I noticed that after 2 years of running on 10% ethanol my old primer bulb was getting spongy so after hearing about what was going on on the docks I swapped it out. Apparantly, the bulb needs to be firm in order that the prime is maintained.

The new bulb appears to be made of something other than that of my old bulb. Hopefully it won't be succeptable to corrosion by the alcohol content in the fuel.

Next time I'm at West Marine I'm picking up a new fuel hose since the old one doesn't owe me any money, and I'll try to find out if they're now being made of ethanol resistant materials.

I'd suggest that anyone noticing that they have a mushy priming bulb, replace it before they stall out while running a jetty under power.

Other than the bulb going soft on me I have no fuel problems at all with my '96 2 stroke Sailmaster, but I've always added some stabilizer into each tank of fuel.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2006 : 19:36:08

Most new hose lines are crap, buy some small band hose clamps to replace the pinch clamps that are used now.

Edited by - on

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