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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Swing Keel Work

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Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/31/2006 : 08:20:38

I just received the Catalina 25 Owners Manual from CD to read about our swing keel. We have been sailing in rather rough conditions lately and I was concerned about the pivot pin and other mechansisms breaking down. We are looking into doing a complete keel retrofit (new pin, spacers, bronze hangers etc.)with the kit from CD. My question is about how to access the pivot pin. My sailing partner says we will have to haul the boat out and keep it in the sling while we lower the keel, block it underneath and access the pivot pin. I think we can block the boat and do the work, but our marina doesn't have tall stands for blocking sail boats. Can someone tell me how they replaced this keel hardware?
(Already searched forum before posting)

1983 C-25, Standard rig, swing keel

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2006 : 09:11:40

There is a post in the Tech Tips that addresses the refit of the swing keel. I wish the wing keel conversion was not so much $$$ or I'd do that. Cheers.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2006 : 09:22:48

Do you have a trailer? With some jacks and blocking changing the hinge, pin, and cable is pretty easy. Couple hours (barring complications).

If the fit of the keel head to the trunk is proper (hand-in-glove), the keel pin and bushings don't take a lot of abuse. That said, it's a good idea to look things over if you haven't done so recently.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2006 : 09:26:03

This is the "all thread" method. The trick is to borrow a finkeel trailer so you have drop room.

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Aceguy
1st Mate

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USA
77 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2006 : 09:32:17

I used my trailer to do all of my swing keel hardware replacements. I used the threaded rod method to drop the keel into the sled, and I built blocks out of 4x4 to keep the keel sitting vertical once it was down. Turned out that the pin was fixed solid in the keel. I tapped it a few times with a plastic mallot and it didn't budge. So, I just replaced the bronze hanger blocks and all the fasteners. I also replaced the cable, cable attachment fitting, turning ball, pin, hose, clamps, and winch at the same time.

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Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2006 : 09:39:40

Okay. I'm looking at drawings from Catalina Yachts from the tech tips and it still unclear to me how to access the pivot pin to inspect and replace. Do I access from the inside or outside? Is the keel retracted completely or does it need to go down? I am also concerned about those four bolts everyone talks about. Not sure how to access those either.

I am looking at the Keel Hanger Casting Kit here at CD:
http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=107

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Cate
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199 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2006 : 09:41:32

I don't have a trailer, but my marina can block my boat. Last time they did it the fully retracted keel was inches from the ground.

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ClamBeach
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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2006 : 10:08:54

"Last time they did it the fully retracted keel was inches "

They will have to leave you more room than that. Note that the replacement keel hinges from Catalina Direct will need to visit a machine shop to be 'faced' down to the proper width... so you need to add time for that step to your haulout.

The pivot pin goes through the keel and is 'trapped' by the hinge castings on each side. It lowers with the keel and when you remove the hinges... there it is.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2006 : 10:50:17

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Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2006 : 11:28:31

Okay. Starting to get the picture here. From reading the documents from Catalina Yachts it appears that I will have to cut away the hull liner from the inside to access the keel hangers and then have the new hangers machined. Wow. Seems like a very big job requiring me to grind down to expose the brushing. Before I take on this major adventure and cost, is there a way to inspect the pivot pin and any other swing keel issues while the boat is in the water?

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2006 : 12:01:20

NO NO NO
You are mistaken, you do not cut away the hull liner unless the screw holes that you see in the photo above are ruined. The inside job is to replace them. You just want to replace the pin and add some shims. The two photos I posted for you tell the whole story. Drop the keel by dropping the pin hanger assembly. This is not an insignificant job but it is very doable. Are there no trailers where you sail? You need time to do this job. You mat discover that the keel itself has been wallowed out by the pin and needs some repair. You need to have time for the unanticipated consequences that may appear. The all thread method is the minimalist cheap method which requires the least special equipment. There are other ways to do it. Have you looked at the tech tip on adding a wing? It has some great photos. In the conversion of Minnie they used a hoist to lift the boat off the keel rather than drop the keel.

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Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2006 : 12:29:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 You just want to replace the pin and add some shims. The two photos I posted for you tell the whole story. Drop the keel by dropping the pin hanger assembly. This is not an insignificant job but it is very doable. ... The all thread method is the minimalist cheap method which requires the least special equipment.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ahhh. Now I'm getting it. (I think) The pin and hangers are in your photo. So I do have to take the boat out and inspect these mechanisims. It also explains why you have to grind down the new bronze hangers to fit the original hanger insets. So in lowering the keel to access the pin I have to have the room below to rest the keel in a stable upright position(with supports) and basically unscrew those big, long screws evenly? Is this the all thread method?

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2006 : 13:02:14

I too plan on inspecting the keel pin this winter. As I look at the photos, I surmise the hanger bolts are replaced by the t-rod one at a time and then the keel is lowered accordingly. What are the hanger bolts/t-rod threaded into? I think I understand that all of the work happens from outside/below the hull.
Thanks!
Jerry

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2006 : 13:56:56

yep yep

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sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2006 : 05:46:31

Inspect the cable carefully too and all its hardware. When the keel is lowered do the whole thing. Prepare the keel for protective coating and maybe bottom paint too. The keel is heavy and dangerous when separated from the hull as it can flop without braces. There are other ideas such as modifying the bunk trailer by raising the bunks for room to lower the keel with the cable and a floor jack on to a keel cradle. Use the Forum and prepare for plan A and plan B. Have time to work on each phase and then get back to sailing.

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Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2006 : 08:39:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sweetcraft
 Inspect the cable carefully too and all its hardware. When the keel is lowered do the whole thing. Prepare the keel for protective coating and maybe bottom paint too. The keel is heavy and dangerous when separated from the hull as it can flop without braces. There are other ideas such as modifying the bunk trailer by raising the bunks for room to lower the keel with the cable and a floor jack on to a keel cradle. Use the Forum and prepare for plan A and plan B. Have time to work on each phase and then get back to sailing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
After a lengthy discussion and review of forum pictures we have decided to dry dock the boat over the winter and do a full inpsection of all keel hardware, thru hulls and our sticky knot meter paddle wheel. That way we will have all the time we need to order parts, make repairs and upgrade. I think we are going to do the all-thread method to stay aligned and use braces and a jack to lower and raise the 1500lb. keel.Luckily we have some fellow sailors at our marina who are sure to lend a hand and advise. Having rennovated an old house I anticipate that we may find a host of other repairs once we start taking things apart. We plan on having this boat for a long time, so in my mind it's worth the effort and cost.

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ClamBeach
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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2006 : 09:22:35

"and our sticky knot meter paddle wheel"

Only way I've found to keep a paddlewheel working is to remove it when you're not sailing and put the blanking plug in. A tiny amount of crud will mess it up.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2006 : 10:42:53

A rewire and power panel upgrade is another good project.

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Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2006 : 11:01:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 A rewire and power panel upgrade is another good project.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Been there and did that early summer. New panel, cabin lights, deck connector and electric OB connection. Very satisfying projects. Have to go up the mast to check the deck light on the spreader to find out why it is so moody about staying lit.

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ed_spengeman
1st Mate

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USA
98 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2006 : 11:28:39

I have an 83 s/k on a Tril Rite trailer. I just saw that it is possible to raise rollers enough to drop the keel. Never heard that before. Does anyone know if you can raise it with that brand of trailer?

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ClamBeach
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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2006 : 20:11:36

"I have an 83 s/k on a Tril Rite trailer. I just saw that it is possible"

Dunno about a trailrite but I do it on my EZ-Loader. A bottom job and keel maintenance is currently in process. PM me if you want some photos.

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Cate
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199 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2006 : 21:09:28

I had the opportunity to look at C-25 SK in our marina that has been blocked all summer. I looked carefully at the keel in the retracted position and noticed that the hangers that hold the keel on the forward section are flush with the hull. I couldn't see how one would
"unscrew" the hangers shown in the all thread method pictures above. I know I will have to remove bottom paint, but how the heck do you get those things off to set up the all-thread?

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ClamBeach
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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2006 : 21:32:56

>"... unscrew" the hangers shown in the all thread method pictures above... get those things [hinges] off to set up the all-thread"

Quick answer, you don't take the hinges off to do the all-thread. The all thread is used to lower the hinges and keel together... all at once.

The hinge bolt heads lie in recesses machined up into the hinges so everything sits flush.

Using a socket remove 1 hinge bolt and screw the all-thread up into the hull in it's place.

Then tighten up a temporary nut on the all-thread to hold that end of the hinge in place. (You use a heavy washer to keep the nut from going up into the recess). Repeat the process for the second bolt on that hinge. Instead of being held by the bolts, the hinge is now supported by two pieces of all thread and two nuts. Then in turn, repeat for the two bolts on the other side.

Couple pointers:

Be sure to lube everything.

On my boat, the female threaded sections embedded in the hull and the recesses cast into the hinges weren't in perfect alignment... there was a bit of mis-manufacture. I had to spend some 'quality time' lying under the boat with a burr and a dremel tool to relieve the recesses in the hinge castings enough to get a socket up over the bolthead. Hopefully you won't have to do this... but be prepared. I think they must have used a special thin-wall socket to tighten the hinge bolts at the factory.

Use double nuts tighened together (jammed) on the bottom of the all thread to keep it from backing out as you unscrew each of the nuts. The hinges and keel gradually will lower out of the hull, about a half inch at a time. With two people it goes pretty quick. By myself, it takes a good half hour to 45 minutes to lower the keel onto the trailer. That was a lot of wrench turning and walking from one side of the boat to the other.

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Cate
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Response Posted - 09/06/2006 : 14:42:25

"The hinge bolt heads lie in recesses machined up into the hinges so everything sits flush.
Using a socket remove 1 hinge bolt and screw the all-thread up into the hull in it's place."

Okay. That's what I was wondering. The hinge bolts on my friends blocked C-25 are completely hidden. You can't even see that they are recessed. I imagine I will have to remove bottom paint and any other gunk to expose those hinge bolts.

Thanks for the all-thread steps above.

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Justin
Admiral

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Response Posted - 09/07/2006 : 08:41:54

This thread has been helpful. I plan to complete this project in the next few months when I haul out my C-25. A couple questions:
I see Catalina Direct says the new casting kit was improved over the original, fitting closer in to the keel. What should I look for to determine if I need to replace my castings or should they be replaced every so many years just to be safe? I was planning to see how much play there is with the pivot pin.

Can anyone tell me the dimensions of the all threaded bolt needed?

I don't have access to a trailer, so I'm planning to have it blocked. There isn't any big difference than being on a trailer right? I'm planning to build a 4x4 frame to support the keel and use shims to keep it aligned. You then use a hydrolic jack to lift the keel back up as you rethread each bolt up?

I plan to definitely replace my keel cable, winch, hose, and turning ball. Should I plan to replace other parts or just wait and inspect them first?

Thanks for the help, this will definitely be a big project!

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2006 : 08:58:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cate
 We plan on having this boat for a long time, so in my mind it's worth the effort and cost.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
In that case, have you seriously evaluated doing the wing conversion, thereby eliminating all of this forever (as opposed to revisiting it every few years)? You might want to contact Val Bisagni (among others) to discuss that.

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