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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Is this headsail too big?

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/14/2006 : 12:47:46

Hi All,

This guy beat the heck out of me last night in our Wednesday night races. This headsail looks bigger than a 155 to me. What do ya'll think?

Ben
Beneteau 361
Viking Kitty
Columbus, Ohio

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2006 : 13:07:12

It looks close enough to a 155 to me.

From the picture it looks like the genoa clew is about even with the main sail clew which would put the genoa clew around 18ft from the forestay stem making the LP probably around 16ft which is about right for a 155 on an H25.

Edited by - dlucier on 09/14/2006 13:09:27

saribella
Captain

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USA
286 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2006 : 13:16:19

The foot appears to be 18 feet or more. I would definately say it is a 170% genoa based on the calcs.

Edited by - saribella on 09/14/2006 13:19:09

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2006 : 13:24:11

For it to be a 175% (LP of 18.4"), the foot would probably be around 20-21ft.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2006 : 13:25:37

170-180
sailing with a bad number, ask if his number reflects his sail. Move where there is wind.

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2006 : 13:31:38

No Frank, his number (you mean phrf?) is not reflected with a headsail greater than 155. Do you, or does anyone, know what the penalty is for flying a 170 headsail?

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2006 : 13:52:03

Hard to tell about that sail... It might look smaller (155) from direct abeam. But it sure is a deck-sweeper!

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2006 : 14:18:54

When looked at directly abeam, the clew of the headsail comes back beyong the forward edge of the cockpit by about a foot or so, that's what struck me first. I wasn't ready with the camera last night when the boat was directly abeam of me.

Anyway, I just want to make sure that we're racing fairly. He shares my phrf of 240. I've beaten him a few times, but not recently.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2006 : 14:34:40

It looks like a 170% to me. Given the wind coditions, a wise choice of sails.

Remember, the LP is not measured at the foot, it's measured from luff to clew, at the max (measurement will be 90deg to the luff, thus "Luff Perpendicular"). This measurement is then compared to the J, which is tack-mast.

With my 155% decksweeper, the clew is significantly farther fwd than on this rig.

BUT, at least here (CO) he should be taking a rating penalty. In our case, the penalty would be -3 for the largest headsail having an LP of 156 to 165%, and -6 for an LP >166%.

We dont have any H25's in our area, but the NE area has 'em at 228, so he should really be sailing at 222 (or thereabouts, depending on the local certification and other adjustments).

How bad did he beat you by, what was your time, and do you know what your local correction factor is? You can figure out if the "corrected" rating would have helped you out or not. If the previous didnt make sense, send me yours and his elapsed times, corrected times, and PHRF ratings and I can figure it out (close enough).

Edit (this came in while I was posting, dam work getting in the way...):
"He shares my phrf of 240" - Ben
Seems about right for the C25, but high for the H25. And the H25 should have an adjustment for the 170% (if that's what it is).

Jim
#183 - Team Short Bus
(btw, we have the logo for the boat done, will post when I get it in an acceptable file format)

Edited by - SailCO26 on 09/14/2006 15:00:15

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2006 : 17:54:19

" what the penalty is for flying a 170 headsail?"
Should be 12 secs/mile.
His PHRF should be around 222 BEFORE the penalty.
Ben - bitch like heck to your PHRF Committee.
Derek
Chairman, PHRF of the Alamo

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2006 : 19:56:50

If you got beat by a Hunter either you are a lousy sailor or he was cheating.

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2006 : 21:22:52

Actually, last night I got beat by an H23.5 and that old Hunter 25. I never said I was a good sailor.

The H23.5 is skippered by our Learn To Sail instructor, so he definitely knows what he's doing.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2006 : 21:34:12

Doesn't that blue stripe suggest that it's bigger than a 150 genoa?
Sure looks to me like a 170.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2006 : 07:03:10

170 penalty is only 3 seconds for us up here Derek.

The Mainsail is penalized 3 seconds per 5% increment, but not the headsail..

I don't think that is a 170 but it sure isn't a 155...

There is generally no rule about headsail color in PHRF...usually cloth weight and fabric are set in one design class rules and not PHRF rules.

dw

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2006 : 11:26:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Nautiduck:
 If you got beat by a Hunter either you are a lousy sailor or he was cheating.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Myself, I'm not a big Hunter fan, but we've got a H26.5 out here with a 197 rating and he sails to it. I really hated that guy when I raced against him in my CP26, and they had me at a 190. LMAO now, what were they thinking? There's another CP26 that now races in that fleet with a 225.

Re the oversize headsail penalties:
With a 240 base rating a -3 penalty would be about 3sec/mile and a -6 would be about 7sec/mile (as posted above). Over an hour-long race (what we shoot for here on Wed nights), he'd owe you about 14s with a -3 and about 27s with a -6. Now if his BASE rating is supposed to be a 222 (again, as posted above), then he'd owe you about 1m23s/hr at 222, 1m38s/hr at 219 (-3) and 1m52s/hr at 216 (-6).
Note: the above is based on the CO/RM-SAIL PHRF numbers, you're area may be different depending on local adjustments to PHRF calculations.

Soooo, it boils down to just how much did he beat you by on the course (elapsed time)?

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2006 : 10:55:33

It looks like a 170 to me. BTW, I sail with a 170 most of the time. My jib block is about a foot behind my winches.

Here on the Potomac, wind is generally in the 5 knot range--often less. The penalty we use is 6 seconds a mile.

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2006 : 12:12:48

Thanks everyone,

Our club's PHRF chairperson asked the owner to bring in the headsail for measurement. I'll let ya'll know what the verdict is.

Edited by - on

Alan Clark
Captain

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406 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2006 : 21:19:56

Ben, Our bet is on the 170..

, On "Leprechaun" we have a 170 (check the gallery pictures) It is very light material and we use very small dedicated sheets-Nice for Light air nights

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2006 : 11:27:25

I'm not sure if it's a 170, but it looks bigger than a 155.

You did a great job at this year's nationals. Handicaps equalize the differences between boats. A good sailor can sail a slow boat to it's handicap and win races. An average sailor using oversized sails can beat a faster boat. If he's using oversized sails, it's not fair to anyone. Keep him honest, Ben!

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