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Don't heel with motor on! They don't like water!!

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bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/23/2006 : 11:34:53

2 weeks ago we were heading out of the Berkeley marina, winds were strong and I was on the foredeck to raise the sails with a friend on the tiller. Just behind the final breakwater I raised the jib and had him turn to starboard. We started heeling a bit immediately (to starboard). We were motor-sailing out behind the breakwater and I busied myself with raising the main. I got the main up and now we were beyond the breakwater and catching the full brunt of the westerly - now we were really heeling (rails in). Helmsman says 'hey Bill, what do I do about the engine - it's under water!' I said 'oh ***' told him him to push the red button to turn it off. I got back there asap and got the motor up out of the water. That was Friday night. On Sunday (this was 2 weeks ago) I drained the oil and fuel, changed the spark plug and no go; the engine would not turn over. After about a hundred pulls I gave up. I took it in to the boat yard to have the pros handle it.

Yesterday I got the bill - $780.00! (This is a 5 yr old 6 hp Nissan). They had to replace the carb, and some pin on the flywheel sheered off form the force of the engine sucking in water and seizing. Long story short(er) - they spent 8 hrs on the thing plus $140 in parts. I was furious that they didn't call and tell me, and we agreed on a reduced price.

So, if you are motorsailing on a starboard tack - be careful!!! Water is not combustible. Salt water is especially damaging. Another lesson learned the hard way.

Bill B
Wind Dancer
#4036 84 SR/FK
San Francisco Bay

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2006 : 16:56:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bbriner
 Another lesson learned the hard way.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ouch, Bill...expensive lesson.

If I haven't killed and stowed the outboard before raising the main, I will do so before setting the headsail.

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2006 : 17:05:29

That must'a hurt Bill. I do the same as Don. Cheers.

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bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2006 : 23:00:47

I was taught to keep it on until sails are up and we are clear of the hard (lee) shore. I will be re-thinking that particular lesson - especially when I have strong (25+) kt winds!!!

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2006 : 01:12:09

Bill:

I see several things happening in your story. First, if the winds were 25+ knots, it sounds to me as though you had too much sail up. On my TR. that breeze would call for a small amount of jib and either a deeply reefed main or no main at all. The C25 usually sails better with jib and no main than vice versa. If you're going to raise the main, 12 - 15 knots wind is about the point where you want a reef.

Second, I use the motor to keep the boat into the wind to raise the main, and don't fall off the wind until the main is up. I find it pretty hard to raise the main unless I'm into the wind. Then, back in the cockpit, I fall off, sheet the sails, and turn the motor off.

Third, if I'm going to use the main, it goes up first, as Don suggests. Whether your jib is on a roller or is hanked on, it's easier to raise the jib off the wind than it is the main.

This might be incentive for you to run your halyards back to the cockpit and relocate your halyard winch from the mast to the coach roof. It can be a long way from the mast to the outboard if the boat is beginning to fall off the wind. I'd also recommend roller furling. For about that $ 780, you could install a roller furler, have your jib recut for the roller, and relocate your halyards.

Brooke

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PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2006 : 10:42:16

Hey Bill, ouch!! He musta laid the hull on the side to have that happen. Call you every time I get past the Bay Bridge but guess we never out at the same time. Brooke, you really have to appreciate where Bill sails. After he turns the corner at the marina he's into a stiff westerly that comes through the Golden Gate down what is locally called the 'slot.'
It has the strongest winds on the bay and 20 plus is a light day. He's close hauled to get anywhere right off the bat. Under jib alone he would wind up on the 80 freeway, he'd never point out of there. I think the problem was an inexperienced helmsman who should have pointed to the wind or let the mainsheet fly.

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2006 : 18:18:40

Paul, having seen the SF Bay winds, I appreciate your perspective. I agree with you about the helmsman. I do still think he should put the main up first.

Brooke

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Dustysailz
1st Mate

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USA
85 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2006 : 19:13:59

wow. i have never seen the rails in the water. in fact i have not seen my toe rail in the water. as others have said, i always raise the main while the motor is warming up (unless the wind is blowing well enough for me to sail out of the mooring field and cove). after
i'm in the channel the roller furler does a fine job of lettering the headsail out and then the motor is turned off. maybe i'm just a wussy, but i don't think i have been out in 25 knots. but am glad to hear the the 25 with a fin keel will take it!

dustysailz
"ode to joy"
#4503

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Dustysailz
1st Mate

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USA
85 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2006 : 19:30:10

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Jmurfy
Navigator

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USA
176 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2006 : 21:39:23

Just curious, what would be the point of motor sailing and why even bother with the main when the winds are that strong?

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2006 : 22:44:57

Motor sailing is mostly helpful in light winds, or if the wind is on the nose. The sails help generate some lift and extra speed: if the wind is light and variable and you're motoring at 5 knots, you're generating 5 knots apparent wind over the bow. If you raise the main, it will respond to that little bit of wind and give you some lift. I find in negligible winds I can reduce my gas consumption by about a third by raising the main while motoring. You can't sheet the jib in hard enough to make it effective for winds dead on the nose.

You're right about using only the jib in big wind. My point about the original question was that he had raised the jib, had fallen off the wind, and then was raising the main. If he was going to use the main, I think he should have raised that first.

Brooke

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PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2006 : 09:14:09

Brooke, I agree...the main should have gone up first...Hmmm hard to believe Bill would put the jib up first coming out of there. On a good blustery day anywhere on the bay your first concern is control.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2006 : 09:57:53

I agree that the main should have gone up first. A reef probably should have been tucked in at the dock, before going out. After the main is up, you can shut down the motor and tilt it, because the boat will sail reasonably well on main alone, so, the motor isn't needed anymore. Also, the boat will sail slowly and under control with the main alone. Unlike the jib, the mainsail is self-tending when you tack. You don't need to re-adjust the sheets when you tack the mainsail while beating to windward. After the mainsail is up, then raise a jib of appropriate size.

Also, when you're either raising the sails or motorsailing, the motor should be running as slowly as possible, while still enabling you to keep the boat pointed into the wind. If it's running too fast, that increases the boat's apparent windspeed, which greatly increases the boat's tendency to heel.

When there's a newby at the helm while I'm on the foredeck raising sails, I use him as an extension of my hands. I assume that he needs to be told everything to do. While I'm raising the sails, I remain aware of the way the boat is behaving, and it's orientation to the wind, and tell him to pull the tiller towards him (a little or a lot), or push it away from him. If the conditions are so challenging that he can't control the boat under my guidance, then I'd stay at the dock until the wind subsides.

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bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2006 : 10:55:25

Well, I'll add a few more bits of information..
We were headed out to race, which is why we weren't reefed. My jib is a 110 and we usually have an upwind-downwind course. With all sail up and sailing as close as possible the heel isn't that bad in that kind of wind (which, as Paul said, is normal) and of course I wanted as much as possible for the downwind run. We ended up 5th out of 7 which for us is pretty good (this is our first season racing).

The reason for keeping the motor on is that if anything breaks (e.g. a halyard!) or if there are any problems I can still motor away (or buy more time) from the rocks on the lee shore, which in the Berkeley marina are only about 50 feet away when you turn left (or right). Believe me, that can be scary if things get out of control.

Yes, I should have put the main up first, as I usually do. This time though I thought that since I had an experienced helmsman I'd try something different to practice for when I don't .. the idea being to raise the jib, head out the north entrance on a beam reach, then, once clear of the breakwater, head up to a close reach to raise the main (with a loose mainsheet), when we are clear and steady. With a loose mainsheet I don't think we would've drowned the engine.

I wanted to do this because it is really hard to head out in this kind of wind with an inexperienced helmsman (which often happens). The problem here was that the main was sheeted in so we were heeling when I didn't want to. As skipper I do take full responsibility since my instructions were obviously not understood and I clearly didn't even think of the engine getting drowned.

As someone said, yes, this is very good motivation to bring the lines aft.

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3461 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2006 : 11:45:57

My opinion is that if going out in heavy winds, the only exception with raising the main first is if one has a furling rig on the jib. A few times i have gone out when the winds were really blowing with some high gusts. I think with either sail up or even both, an experienced sailor with loosen up the sheets and let the air out unless caught off guard while attending to something else. But if I am not sure what I am in store for getting out of the marina and into open water, I put up my jib furled to some degree and then adjust it when i am out there. i have seen other sailboats out there with both sails up and then have a difficult time especially if they do not main sail reefing lines rigged and do not have a furling rig on the jib.

Given all the precautions one can take, probably every one has been caught off-guard at least a few times when they probably did not have their hand on the main sail sheet or could not get it our fast enough from the cam cleat or whatever you call it. if the wind kicks up, it can catch you off guard and if you have another assisting you and he is not as familiar with sailing, then more likely for issues to pop up.

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2006 : 12:36:54

Another piece of advice I learned the hard way...
The OB motor mount was raised AND the motor tilted, as we were heeled pretty hard and just raising the motor mount was not enough to get the shaft and prop ot of the water. The mistake came when we had to quickly drop the motor back into the water. I lowered the motor mount before un-tilting the motor. This resulted in jaming the front bar of the OB against the motor mount frame, about 1/2 way down. The entire motor and motor mount assembly were wedged against each other and locked in place. I couldn't adjust the motor tilt nor lower the mount any further. We rigged the boom vang as a block and fall and got enough pressure off the mount assembly to raise the motor, adjust the tilt and then lower. Live and learn...
Jerry

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DaveC25
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2006 : 13:47:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jmurfy
 Just curious, what would be the point of motor sailing and why even bother with the main when the winds are that strong?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, one thing I can think of right off the bat in using the main is that if he had to be close hauled as was stated earlier, then he can point better with the main and also he might have to tack, and anyone who has been out in a blow knows you cannot tack on jib alone in heavy wind, no matter how fast you get the boat going. Without the main helping to push you around, the jib acts like a big flag and won't let the bow come through the wind. But certainly anything above 15-20knts requires at least one reef in the main.

As far as motorsailing, who knows? :) Maybe he couldn't point where he needed to on just the jib? Of course, I'm just speculating...

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