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Ugly Rudder Repair Starting Tonight

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gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/09/2006 : 20:49:06

So I sailed Sunday. Then looked at my rudder. It needed painting so I removed it. Then I noticed the following

...and from a different angle:

The above were of the bottom pintle attachment points.
Below you can see that the top points are cracking also:

So here is my question: I need to repair this. How should I proceed? What materials should I be using to make this rock_solid? Should I try to find a stainless steel backing plate and maybe bolt through it in several places, then reattach the pintles?
Anyone have really good experience with doing this?
CD's price is high (with two in college and looking at having the bottom done soon) and I'd like to fix it myself.....by Friday so I can go sailing this coming weekend....and I work all day so I need to do this FAST in the evenings!!!!
I've got resin and fiberglass matting and Marine Tex in the shop already.
Also, I forgot to say above that I had attempted to do a permanent fix on this a couple years ago and the fix obviously did not hold up in our Mission Bay marine environment.
Plus, it seems there is a crack running across the rudder through the point where the bolts go through but this does not extend back across the width of the rudder any farther than the second bolt hole...
Help

Gary & Susie Norgan
1989 C25 tall/wing
Classical Cat #5944
San Diego/Mission Bay Fleet 7

Edited by - on

atgep
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Response Posted - 10/09/2006 : 21:30:46

Gary,
I was admiring your boat on Sat when I went sailing with Jim. The repair you are looking at is not difficut but may require more time than you have. You will need to grind out the bad glass. It will need to be tapered out quite a bit. The core will then have to be checked and repaired as needed. You then need to lay up the new glass. A proper repair area would be about 8 inches square. If possible I would make the area a little thicker and bend the pintles to fit. Measure the distance between the gudgeons as you will have to drill all new holes when done.

Don't foget to gel coat it or at least spray paint it to protect it from UV.

Tom.

Edited by - on

gnorgan
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Response Posted - 10/09/2006 : 22:51:30

Thanks, Tom. Had I known I'd have driven down Saturday to sail. Sundays' wind was very, very light but I still sailed....

Monday night about 2 hours after original posting and I have started grinding. I haven't ground out to 8 inches though so will do that Tuesday. I might take a picture and post it once it is ground out all the way.
I just decided after posting that I'd start doing something to get this project going....and I sure to like my Dremel!! Got jelcoat dust all over the place (had respirator on).
Looked in W.M. catalog and decided on Marine Tex. Turns out I had "Formula 27", not Marine Tex. Will have to buy some on the way home tomorrow (Tuesday). May mix epoxy resin or the Marine Tex with fiberglass fibers and pack the large holes where I'd ground out and repaired for new bolt holes last time (it failed). Then I'll overlay with fiberglass matting over epoxy resin and Marine Tex over that and smooth it out and let cure. Then sand down and overlay with gelcoat per Tom's suggestion. Oh, and then I can get back to sanding and repainting with bottom paint...
Have a better idea? I'll be checking during the day Tuesday. Got to get this done and back on the boat ASAP.

Edited by - on

atgep
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Response Posted - 10/10/2006 : 03:29:51

Gary,
It sounds like you have a pretty good idea on what needs to be done. If you are using epoxy resin, make sure the resin does not eat the foam core. Polyester resin will not do that, but does not bond as well as epoxy based resins. If memory serves well, the foam core was a type that does not react. I did a simmilar repair to my rudder 2 yrs ago.

You have 2 goals.

1 fill the damaged core areas with a slurry of resin and fiberglass.

2 repair the skin with a nice sized patch of fiberglass that is stronger than the original skin so it does not break again.

Be carefull of using marine tex as it is very strong but brittle. A layup of glass cloth and resin is the way to go.

Tom.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2006 : 07:19:21

??? I saw rolls of Fiberglass Tape at Lowes hardware store. The tape is self adheasive 2" wide about 1/8" mesh.

Would that be suitable for using when doing fiberglass repairs/builds? It seems to me that it would make it easy to lay up rather than mess around with bare tape bedding into resin. The mesh is large enough to allow resin to saturate the tape.

Just curious of opinion on this.
<center>
[url="http://www.fibreglassmesh.com/Self_Adhesive_Fiberglass_Tape.htm"]

[/url]
</center>
paul

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atgep
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Response Posted - 10/10/2006 : 07:58:25

That tape does not have the density to make strong bond. It is not the resin, but the glass fabric that makes it strong. The fiberglass tape you see is for drywall which is an excellent use.

Tom.

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tinob
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Response Posted - 10/10/2006 : 08:06:41

Paul, That looks like drywall seam repair tape, and if so I question its being used as Gary needs. I'd go with glass tape, why risk using an unknown product.

Val on Calista # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/10/2006 : 08:40:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 ??? I saw rolls of Fiberglass Tape at Lowes hardware store. The tape is self adheasive 2" wide about 1/8" mesh. Would that be suitable for using when doing fiberglass repairs/builds? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
NO. As pointed out, that's drywall tape designed to be used with taping compound, and good for redoing seams that tend to crack from flexing. (I've used it for that, very successfully.) It is not at all like matting for fiberglass layup. For that, you need matting that provides the right density of fibers for the resin, and that's designed to allow the resin to thoroughly soak into and through the mat--it's that combination that creates the strength of fiberglass. Before you lay down the matting, you coat the area with resin--that's what keeps it in place. Next you saturate the mat with resin, and then you roll or "squeegee" the area so there are no spots of solid resin under or on top of the mat--solid resin weakens the layup.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/10/2006 08:48:16

djn
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Response Posted - 10/10/2006 : 10:13:10

Hi Gary, you might think about replacing your rudder with a balanced rudder. I am doing that this winter. I fixed my rudder, just like you are doing, and will keep it around as a back up. Cheers.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/10/2006 : 11:29:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by djn
 Hi Gary, you might think about replacing your rudder with a balanced rudder. I am doing that this winter.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's what I did, after examining the long split between the two halves of mine. Gary: You might be able to make that rudder sound, and you might not--the bottom pintle is the most vulnerable spot. Several people here have had the blade break all the way across--clean off--at that level, putting them in the sudden position of testing their steer-by-trimming-sails skills (which doesn't always work no matter how skilled you are). The balanced rudder is like power steering and doesn't flutter like the original one.

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gnorgan
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Response Posted - 10/10/2006 : 18:56:06

Still at school, triad grades turned in (finally) and bored with my long hours of work. Sooooo......thought I'd check the forum.
As usual, there's always lots of good, solid, experienced ideas to incorporate in our boat projects.
Dennis, I have the balanced rudder and it is (but might not if fixed properly) trying to break at the lower pintle.
Dave, I'm also concerned about the rudder breaking at that point but want to see if I can possibly salvage the whole thing. At roughly $577 at CD I need to try this first. Plus, you said I needed to squeegee the excess resin out....hadn't any idea I should do that. Thanks. Will be doing that...now

Gotta go home now. More later.
And thanks to all of you. This is why this forum is the best!!!

Edited by - gnorgan on 10/10/2006 22:36:56

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/10/2006 : 21:14:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gnorgan
 Plus, you said I needed to squeegee the excess resin out....hadn't any idea I should do that. Thanks. Will be doing that...now

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A good tool for that is a little 3" paint roller with disposable covers. After saturating your layup, put a little resin on the roller (you don't want it to pick up too much) and then use it with a little pressure to smooth everything out. Then get the cover off the roller before the resin hardens--without touching it. (Slow-cure is a good idea here.) And watch that Japanese guacamole!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/10/2006 21:22:39

atgep
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Response Posted - 10/10/2006 : 21:52:11

Gary,
I am sure you will be able to fix it. A couple of other things,
Use gloves whenever working with the resins. Also, Make sure to tape off the area you are not working on. I like to put saran wrap over the glass before you squegee. This will leave the glass in place and the surface smooth. Also, if you are using epoxy resins, make sure to get the blush off before adding layers. Blush is a waxy, by-product of the epoxy setting up. This is not an issue with polyester based resins.

Good luck, Tom.

Edited by - on

gnorgan
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Response Posted - 10/10/2006 : 22:57:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">And watch that Japanese guacamole! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You mean the "wannabe guacamole wasabe"? Yes, I did learn that evening here in San Diego that when in a Japanese restaurant there is green stuff that only looks like the avocado stuff. Thanks for reminding me of that tasty dinner with great people, low lighting, and how little I know about Japanese food!

I got home today and cut some long and short glass fibers into a plastic mixing tub, then added the epoxy resin. I layed the blade on its side and taped over the bottom of the hole and turned it back over. I did not know how much fiber to add so I put quite a bit into the tub, mixed it well, then proceeded to stuff this mixture into the hole that had been formed over time due to movement and my previous drilling. After some time I started noticing bubbles, then some vapors escaping. The reaction turned out to be very exothermic (I teach high school chemistry) so grabbed a fan to blow cool air over the area. I was concerned that it might literally melt the foam core. It did not. So tomorrow I will grind the area flat, possibly widen the area that will be overlayed with glass matting (as suggested by Dave) and "just get er done".
Night two done, three Wednesday....got to get this done by Friday

Oh, yeah. I still have to put bottom paint on it which was my original purpose

Edited by - gnorgan on 10/10/2006 23:04:56

gnorgan
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Response Posted - 10/10/2006 : 23:12:29

Tom, good idea re: plastic wrap. I used to do this with gel coat on the hulls of our Prindle 16 Catamaran. Dragging the cat across the beach wore off the gel coat so we did our own repairs.

So, Tom, do I have to sand off the "blush"? Makes sense.
It looks right now that I will have to do a fair amount of grinding to get things smooth after putting the fibers in the hole. Not a problem....
I will likely grind out a bigger area as you suggested earlier.

Thanks to all of you for your ideas....working on the boat is so much more fun than working

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atgep
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Response Posted - 10/11/2006 : 00:39:27

Gary,
Here is a page about epoxy blush. I was unaware of this untill recently. I am pretty sure it only affects epoxy based products.

http://www.epoxyproducts.com/blush4u.html

Not a huge deal but a small detail. Let us know how it works out.

Tom.

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 10/11/2006 : 08:06:05

From the West System website...

Cured epoxy-Amine blush can appear as a wax-like film on cured epoxy surfaces. It is a by-product of the curing process and may be more noticeable in cool, moist conditions. Amine blush can clog sandpaper and inhibit subsequent bonding, but it can easily be removed. It's a good idea to assume it has formed on any cured epoxy surface.

To remove the blush, wash the surface with clean water (not solvent) and an abrasive pad, such as Scotch-brite(TM) 7447 General Purpose Hand Pads. Dry the surface with paper towels to remove the dissolved blush before it dries on the surface. Sand any remaining glossy areas with 80-grit sandpaper. Wet-sanding will also remove the amine blush. If a release fabric is applied over the surface of fresh epoxy, amine blush will be removed when the release fabric is peeled from the cured epoxy and no additional sanding is required.

Epoxy surfaces that have not fully cured may be bonded to or coated with epoxy without washing or sanding. Before applying coatings other than epoxy (paints, bottom paints, varnishes, gelcoats, etc.), allow epoxy surfaces to cure fully, then wash and sand.

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gnorgan
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Response Posted - 10/11/2006 : 23:33:30

Wednesday night: Applied several layers of fiberglass matting to both sides after grinding both areas flat. Used Epoxy Resin, West Marine systems stuff.

This step went smoothly....I might have a new profession

Thursday night I will sand it all down and mix up some gelcoat and lay that over the top, applying plastic wrap over the top to make it cure correctly and keep it nice and smooth. I'll tape the edges to stretch it out and to prevent it from dripping all over the floor.
I remember that gelcoat cures best when it is covered by plastic wrap, something one of you suggested earlier.

Hopefully, Friday I can redrill new holes and rebolt the pintles in time to take the repaired rudder down to Mission Bay Saturday....and go sailing.....a REAL "Mission Accomplished"

Edited by - on

Ericson33
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Response Posted - 10/12/2006 : 01:31:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gnorgan
 
I remember that gelcoat cures best when it is covered by plastic wrap, something one of you suggested earlier.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There are different kinds of gelcoat that can be used, really gelcoat is just colored polyester resin. One that has wax in it, and one that does not. With the waxed gelcoat you do not have to add the plastic, the wax rises to the surface of the gelcoat and causes it to cure. With the Non Waxed Gelcoat, PVA or Poly Vinyl Alcohol is used to coat the surface of the gelcoat, and causes it to cure.

In the earlier post you had talked about mixing up the epoxy and the glass fibers and then filling the hole with it, then the resin started to bubble out. You might have cooked the epoxy, and this might effect the structural bonding of the materials. A good key to remember is to layup in layers. This way the resin will not get too hot in the layup.

Gelcoating- Applying the gelcoat should be strait forward. I liked to work in layers with the gelcoat, after each time you apply the gelcoat, and let it setup (15 min.) the gelcoat should be tacky if nothing is covering the gelcoat, this is what you want if applying several layers. If you cover the gelcoat, be sure to sand it down before you apply another layer.

I am going to bring up the Gelcoat (polyester Resin) and the epoxy topic again. Some say to stay away from trying to put gelcoat ontop of epoxy, and some say it will work just fine. There are a number of reports out there, but I always think that if its made of polyester, then fix it with polyester. In this case there is a major structural problem with the screws that hold the hardware on. In this case I would fix the area with polyester resin, gelcoat the area, and blend in the gelcoat to match the existing rudder, then drill out a larger hole and fill this with solid epoxy, then tape the screw holes to apply the hardware to.

So, sorry for the long reply, its late, the wife is out at a movie with friends, and I was just bored.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/12/2006 : 11:15:05

For anyone doing a project like this, be aware that grinding fiberglass creates small airborne glass fibers which cause the same problems as asbestos does--the lungs can't dissolve it, so they encapsulate each little piece. At a minimum, a painter's mask is called for.

Gary: My new balanced rudder came without pintles--I used the ones from the old rudder (after having a machine shop spread them a little). I found that lining up and drilling the holes was very tricky because of the rounded surface, and there's no room for error--those pintles don't give one little bit. If you have a drill press, or access to one, that should help you get the holes lined up so they meet the pintles correctly on both sides. I ended up drilling in from both sides and creating slightly egg-shaped holes. The pintles fit so tightly that it should never be a problem.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/12/2006 11:17:06

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