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mainsail

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panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/17/2006 : 13:11:15

There has been a some talk about a loosefooted mainsail and I have some questions. Why is this better then a stanard main and if it is better why aren't they made this way? Second can a standard main be recut to a loosefooted main.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2006 : 13:19:36

Loose footed give you more control with the outhaul, thus more control of sail shape and draft. If you don't use the outhaul much you won't benefit. Loose footed, full batten mains are a new trend for our boats. Chances are, if you buy a new main from Ullman or one of the other top lofts it will be loose footed, full batten. The full battens gives you better sail shape in light air.

A standard sail can not easily be re-cut to be loose footed.

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2006 : 14:18:44

Hi Jim, but a sail can be converted to full battens correct? Cheers.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2006 : 14:43:58

A main with a loose foot is a fairly new concept. They’ve probably only been around for 10-15 years or so. As is generally the case, they were developed for racing and are finally starting to trickle into the cruising world. The reason why most of them weren’t made that way originally comes from 3 reasons. First, a lot of people still have sails that are original and more than 15 years old. Secondly, many of our population are cruising owners – the technology takes a while to trickle down. Third, the vast majority of our owners are also inland lake sailors where even if there is a lot of racing innovations, most of them take place within small one-design fleets where cut, cloth and size are all strictly controlled.

For our boats it is easier to control loose footers mainly because the outhaul is terrible. Removing the sail from the kerf on the boom reduces friction and helps with outhaul tensioning. This is not the case with all boats, however it is becoming the standard on the vast majority of newer made sails.

Sails can be re-cut to be loose footed however aren’t just quite the same as if the sail were designed to have a loose foot. With our boats, there is still a slug that slides through the kerf and is attached to the tack of the sail. Some boats with different boom designs are even eliminating that, going to a 1x18 velcro strap that loops through the tack and around the boom. With the majority of our outhauls and reefing lines rigged externally, that isn’t really an option for us.

Fully battened mains where also mentioned in this thread. Full battened mains are seen the most in areas where lighter wind is the norm. In heavier wind then can sometimes make it difficult to move the draft of a sail aft (flatten the sail) and therefore aren’t as prolific in areas known for a lot of breeze. One other note about fully battened mains – not all the battens have to run the length of the sail – only the top one – to be considered fully battened.

Hope this helps

dw

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2006 : 10:18:55

I've recently obtained price quotes from two major sailmakers, and both consider full battens to be options at extra-cost. Both recommended that only the top two be full battens. They claim that they make your sail last longer, because they reduce the tendency of the sail to slat and snap in light air and rolling seas. It also appears that they provide more support to a large racing roach, which increases the boat's sail area without affecting it's handicap.

Loose-footed mains serve the same purpose as the old-style racing mainsail with a shelf foot. They enable you to create a deep draft in the foot of the mainsail, which adds power in light air and downwind. If you have a mainsail with a racing shelf foot that is still in good shape, I would not recommend you replace it with a loose-footed main, because I haven't seen any indication that the loose-footed main is a significant improvement, or faster. But, if your old mainsail is a cruising cut sail, you'll undoubtedly like the loose-footed main much better. To get the most enjoyment out of it, though, you should add a couple blocks to your outhaul, to increase your mechanical advantage. It'll make the loose-footed mainsail easier to adjust while underway.

Edited by - on

panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2006 : 12:23:30

Thanks for the information. I sail on Lake Erie and generally by myself in light air. I'm getting braver all the time and getting more comfortable with higher wind strenghts. I guess I will think about this over the winter it looks like I will be pulling the boat this weekend. Does anyone know if just parts for our outboard mount can be bought. Mine has just one spring and if I could get just one arm then I would have a 3 spring mount instead of buying the whole thing.

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2006 : 12:43:13

Hi PanHead, this is the best time to sail on the great lakes. Make sure you can put a reef or two in the main as fast as possible. I sailed lake St. Clair the other day and it went from 15 to 25 in a blink. I am not pulling until Nov. 17. I don't know about the springs.

Edited by - on

saribella
Captain

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USA
286 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2006 : 13:40:09

Parts for the outboard motor mount can be purchased at catalina direct, Follow this link and you can find what you need. http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=84

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2006 : 05:13:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Fully battened mains where also mentioned in this thread. Full battened mains are seen the most in areas where lighter wind is the norm. In heavier wind then can sometimes make it difficult to move the draft of a sail aft (flatten the sail) and therefore aren’t as prolific in areas known for a lot of breeze.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Duane, respectfully, I think you have that backwards. Full battens stiffen/flatten the sail, which is more useful in areas with lots of wind. When I was researching my new main for here on the Chesapeake, where summer is often bereft of breeze (except for stunning line squalls that race down on you), the sailmakers advised against full battens except at the head of the sail, where the wind is greater. I have two full battens at the top of my sail, and partials below. The partials, it certainly appears to me, allow much greater adjustability of draft than do the full battens. All-full battens, I think, make more sense in SF Bay or Frank's beloved Lake Cheney than in regions prone to doldrums.

The great advantage of all-full battens in a low wind area, the sailmakers (Jim Scott and David Baxter, specifically) said, was that they increase the longevity of the sail by reducing its ability to flog.

Brooke

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2006 : 08:24:27

Steve mentioned in passing that full battens at the top of the main help to support an increased roach which is built in for racing. I had North build a main for me which has full battens, loose foot, and a roach that extends about three inches beyond the back stay. I also have installed the four-part internal outhaul available from Catalina Direct,a rigid vang from Garhouer, and a cunningham led aft to the cockpit. Here are my observations on this set up.

- The increased size of the main with a large roach make the boat very powerful but also requires reefing earlier than with a standard main.

- With the main single reefed and flattened, and the jib furled down to about 100%, the boat points much better.

- The ability to adjust the foot so that the main bellys out, makes the boat sail a little faster in light air, on all points of sail. Similarly, with the four-part outhaul used in conjuction with the vang and a cunningham led to the cockpit, it is infinately easier to flatten the main in heavy air. I would not get a loose footed main without also installing a block and tackle out haul of some type.

- The rigid vang allows the crew to reef the main without having to be concerned with the boom dropping into the cockpit. The full battens also help to keep the sail and boom from flailing around, both significant safety factors over the traditional rope vang/ topping lift and standard sail battens.

- In light air, the increased roach size causes the main to hang up on the backstay. This in turn requires that a crew person hang out over the stern to pull the stay outward to let the sail by-pass the backstay. If you are sailing/or racing alone this requires you to leave the tiller, again a safety problem in particularly tight quarters.

- Yes, the full battens keep the sail from flogging in the wind. They also make it much heavier to raise.

- Full battens, with or without lazy jacks, make it much easier to flake the main on the boom. Lazy jacks make it that much easier, particularly if you are sailing single handed. I will be installing them next season.

Although I have noticed an increase in performance, I cannot say specifically that full battens are the reason. I am sure that the loose foot and larger roach are factors however. All the improvements I have made - full roach, full battens, loose footed main, four-part outhaul, rigid vang, and cunningham led aft to the cockpit, have improved sail handling and boat keeping immensly in all conditions. The only significant drawback is with the roach hanging up on the backstay.

Hope this helps with your decision.

Edited by - aeckhart on 10/20/2006 11:27:22

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2006 : 09:44:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Brooke Willson
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Fully battened mains where also mentioned in this thread. Full battened mains are seen the most in areas where lighter wind is the norm. In heavier wind then can sometimes make it difficult to move the draft of a sail aft (flatten the sail) and therefore aren’t as prolific in areas known for a lot of breeze.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Duane, respectfully, I think you have that backwards. Full battens stiffen/flatten the sail, which is more useful in areas with lots of wind. When I was researching my new main for here on the Chesapeake, where summer is often bereft of breeze (except for stunning line squalls that race down on you), the sailmakers advised against full battens except at the head of the sail, where the wind is greater. I have two full battens at the top of my sail, and partials below. The partials, it certainly appears to me, allow much greater adjustability of draft than do the full battens. All-full battens, I think, make more sense in SF Bay or Frank's beloved Lake Cheney than in regions prone to doldrums.

The great advantage of all-full battens in a low wind area, the sailmakers (Jim Scott and David Baxter, specifically) said, was that they increase the longevity of the sail by reducing its ability to flog.

Brooke
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah - I did get it backwards...

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2006 : 10:52:52

Neither of you got it backwards, the full batte should be tensioned to the wind conditions, we just never do it because we a re lazy. In light wind you would tighten the velcro closer and put prebend in, in heavy air you relax the tensio0n and let the sail flatten. A big advantage in heavy air is the reduction of flogging, they also aid in stacking the dropped sail.
I have an idea that I am going to run by Gary Swensen.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2006 : 11:31:59

Frank,

I have not seen or heard of the idea of tensioning or untensioning the battens in accordance to the wind conditions but it makes sense. The sail maker makes it easy enough to do with velcro closures.I will have to try and remember this for next season and try it out.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2006 : 16:35:04

That's possible if the wind conditions are constant, which, in my experience, they seldom are. It seems to me much easier to adjust the outhaul than four battens that, if the wind condition changed abruptly, would require the mainsail to be dropped for batten adjustment. My battens have both velcro covers and ties to keep them in place, and require a "batten tool" (a short piece of batten to free the deeply imbeddded velcro) to loosen or remove them. I can't imagine fiddling with battens according to wind velocity when the outhaul, vang, traveler, halyard, backstay, cunningham, and topping lift are all designed to change lift more effectively.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 10/20/2006 16:39:24

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
859 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2006 : 21:21:30

I attended a sail repair seminar at our local club.
The sailmaker said on high-end racing boats, the crew will change the battens depending on the expected conditions that day.
He brought samples of thin battens that could be stacked in layers to increase stiffness.
He had tappered battens that were thick in the middle and thin on the ends.
I don't remember much about the discussion regarding on partial vs. full battens.
It was fairly interesting, but a topic I thought I would never use.

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