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Knock down recovery

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Bob Jack
1st Mate

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USA
58 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/20/2006 : 09:51:54

I, like Mike Chrisman from Cincy, have been lurking out here in cyber space quietly taking in all the great info and relishing in the comradery found in this forum. I too am just a few months away from buying a new 250. I had a cat22 for 10 years back in the 80's, before life cicumstances forced me into power boats. Things have changed again, and I am anxious to return to my first love. The 250 is the boat for the shallow water around my house here in S.W. Florida and it will fit nicely on the lift behind my house.
I know the W/B feature scrunches up the head room by about 6 inches and I can live with that, but a question crepped into my mind late last night as I dreamed about sailing the Gulf towards Key West. How does the W/B ballast respond to a knock down..?? Does it pop upright
similiar to a lead keel model if the tilt approaches 90 degrees...???

Bob

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 10:02:08

Bob,

Check out the swap meet. There's a 250 wing keel available in Miami which may suit your needs a little better. I'm a C25 owner and never really liked the water ballast idea regarding stability. Great around launch ramps though.....I guess.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 12:07:21

Bob,
Just so you know, the reduction in head room is more like 10". It really shows up in the afterberth. We looked at both WB & WK models and decided on the WK largely because of the headroom. In the main cabin Rita at 5' can stand upright with room to spare, while I have to crouch a bit at 6'-2". Lots of room with the poptop open though. I think the standing headroom in the WB is more like 4'-7"? Paul can confirm. The WK does make it interesting to launch in thin water though, check my post about it a few weeks ago: http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13603

I don't have any experience with knockdowns in this boat since we've only had it a couple of months. I hope to never learn except by someone else's experience.

Edited by - on

Bob Jack
1st Mate

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USA
58 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 14:01:16

The extra head room in the WK is very attractive..as well as the tried and true fixed keel. There is only one reason I'm leaning towards the W/B at this time..draft...The generally shallow conditions around where I live.....We have a pretty large tidal swing and sometimes it can get downright skinney in the canal..I have visions of being stranded for hours while swatting mosquitos and trying to placate my guests...All this while being able to see the lights of our home port.It seems like a wing keel could really grab hold of a mucky bottom...and that alone is why I thought I'd do the W/B... I will be keeping it on a lift. If the disadvantages weren't too great I thought it would be an acceptable inconveniece. Now I wonder if I'd be trully happy with "less boat".

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 16:01:14

Bob, Welcome Back. I too had a Cat 22 for many years back in the 80's but gave it up. I am now the owner of a c250 for about a month now and love it. Cant understand why I gave sailing up in the first place. Anwy, I had retractable keel with the 22 and now have a WK. Wow, what a difference. The C250 is quieter, more stable and just fun to sail. But I have a slip so dont need to trailer. I wish you best of luck.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 17:15:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bob Jack
 The extra head room in the WK is very attractive..as well as the tried and true fixed keel. There is only one reason I'm leaning towards the W/B at this time..draft...The generally shallow conditions around where I live.....We have a pretty large tidal swing and sometimes it can get downright skinney in the canal..I have visions of being stranded for hours while swatting mosquitos and trying to placate my guests...All this while being able to see the lights of our home port.It seems like a wing keel could really grab hold of a mucky bottom...and that alone is why I thought I'd do the W/B... I will be keeping it on a lift. If the disadvantages weren't too great I thought it would be an acceptable inconveniece. Now I wonder if I'd be trully happy with "less boat".

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Remember the rudder is as deep as the wing, it does not have a kick up rudder. The shallow draft of the WB is best realized on a ramp. If you are really worried about tides a wing will sit on itself, a centerboard will damage itself.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 18:03:02

Bob, I'm not sure the 250 can be knocked down. She will round up quickly when driven more than 40-45 degrees. Further, because she has no side decks, the coach roof adds some buoyancy.

Think of it this way, when a small light boat with a side deck is knocked down...the side deck digs in and gives the boat a tripping factor as a high wind blows her leeward. The 250 with no side deck, displays a buoyant coach roof that will slide leeward rather than digging in to promote tripping.

Regarding headroom... I've cruised my water ballast eight times for periods between a week and three weeks and never felt that cabin height was an issue. In inclement weather, the all weather top pop is used to provide standing headroom at the galley area. Otherwise, the pop top is almost always open while at anchor and often mosquito netting draped over the whole.

I've a brother in law who cruises with me often and he is 6'2" and I'm 5'11" and the only issue he has is that he must back into the head.

I do not use the aft berth however as it has inadequate ventilation and is more difficult to access than the V berth. The V berth provides excellent sleeping unless chop exist. If the aft berth is desired, the wing keel has it all over the water ballast as it is much easier to access the aft berth with the fold up stairs.

I'd suggest deciding between the two models on other issues than cabin height...it just doesn't present that much of an issue.

If deciding on the water ballast and a new boat... get the best price locked down, then ask for a rudder allowance and spend it on an after market beaching rudder from IDA Sailor. The character of the water ballast deserves a beaching rudder and Catalina no longer wishes to offer one.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 11/20/2006 18:07:40

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 19:33:03

My wife opens the bath window only half way ,
just the right angle that nub digs in yourhead.
thats always fun

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2006 : 08:03:05

From experience, I can tell you a 250WK can be knock down, but you have to be caught not paying attention, not having the sails set properly, ie. reefed, and hit by 40-50 MPH winds of the back side of thunderstorms for it to happen. It is a very frightening thing in a 250 especially when the winds, at the same speed switch 180 degrees and hit you again. The result is a 90/270 with the boom buried 1/3 in the water on both headings and the mainsheet stripped through the becket and dangling ten feet out in the water. This all happened the first time I raced the boat running with 20-25 degrees of heal, which I am sure you have found out by now is not a safe place for the 250. This same event caused three boats, up to 22 feet to get turtled and many others to be knock down.

Edited by - on

Bob Jack
1st Mate

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USA
58 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2006 : 09:17:59

Frog,
Thanks for the post...How did she respond..? did she promptly pop back up after the wind passed...? I don't have a 250 (yet)..Going to the Sail Boat Show in Miami this February...could you expand a little about boat not being "safe" heeled at 20-25 degrees..
Thanks again,
Bob

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2006 : 09:45:40

Frog,

I too would like to understand what you mean about 20 to 25 degrees of heel not being a safe angle in a 250WK. I sail and race at 15 to 20 degrees of heel all the time, and when overpowered but not wanting to take the time to reef, I have sailed with frequent excursions to 30 degrees (all angles based on my inclinometer) followed by letting out the main to get back to 20 degrees, with no tendency to round up and no other ill effects. The boat is slower above 15 or 20 degrees of heel, as many here have commented before, but this is the first I have heard of these angles being unsafe. Can you explain more what you are thinking?

Thanks.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2006 : 19:48:38

I can confirm the lower headroom on the WB. I'm 6' and it doesn't bother me, but sometimes my petit admiral needs to be wearing a hard hat

Paul

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2006 : 20:33:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kevinmac
 Frog,

I too would like to understand what you mean about 20 to 25 degrees of heel not being a safe angle in a 250WK. I sail and race at 15 to 20 degrees of heel all the time, and when overpowered but not wanting to take the time to reef, I have sailed with frequent excursions to 30 degrees (all angles based on my inclinometer) followed by letting out the main to get back to 20 degrees, with no tendency to round up and no other ill effects. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree! I don't agree that running at 20-25% is a slower position to be in. With full sails out and 25% of heel I am running as fast as the boat can go. My GPS proves this. We raced all last season with 15-20 mph wind (God was shinning) and got a great deal of experience with what makes this WK go fast. Heeling may cause an inferior shape to the hull, but when that far over in higher winds, I am unable to find a faster position then heeled way over with two crew members practically standing on the windward hull. The proof is in the results. We finished 1st last year out of 14 races. 12 1st places.

The biggest improvment to the boat's stability was removing the rear battery and adding two group 27 batteries in the lower bow. Drastic improvement in speed and in balance. The boat just does not want to round up or at least you can feel when it begins to and you can let out the main. Very balanced.

One last note: I am fortunate in that my wife is part of my crew and she doesn't want to go sailing if we can't put the rails in the water. The more we heel, the better she likes. We love it and I would like to thank all of you for the incredible amount of info all provide in this forum. I've learned a lot from you in the last 2 years. This is a great resource for new sailors.

Edited by - Turk on 11/21/2006 20:35:46

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2006 : 21:43:30

She's a Kansas boat Turk, she needs her blow.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2006 : 21:58:51

I to have sailed PennyII at high angles, but if done so in weather that is eracted you can get into trouble in a hurry. As long as the sun is out and the winds are pretty stable with light gusts (5kts) you ahould have no problem as long as you have your hand on the mainsheet. If you are in a Forida summer weather situation, which means clouds, high temps., afternoon thunderstorms and building seabreezes I would not recommend sailing with everything up at a above 20 degrees. As for sailing at 30 degrees I can assure you that at 32 you will run out of rudder if you do nothing and the boat will come up, Oscar and I tested this for a couple of hours one cold windy November day. These are all the reasons why I say not above 25. When cruising the name of the game is relaxation and enjoyment not continually having to watch wind across the water and continually adjusting the sheets. I race single handed 99% of the time and do pretty well against all lengths of boats in stiff winds with a reefed main and full jib at 15-20. I do much better in light winds, below 5kts, and beat most of them with a full main. If you have more rail meat you can fly more sail and if the meat is heavy enough you can fly with everything up.

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2006 : 12:49:32

Frog,

There must be a boat balance or rig difference between your boat and mine. Have you added extra batteries in the rear, or front, or have you added ballast? What jib do you run?

I have an utterly stock '06 C250 WK with one battery in back (the one that came with it). I run the 135 roller furled jib.

I did notice that one time after we transported the boat, I set up the rig too loose, and I had a bit of tendency to start to loose helm at 30 degrees of heel. But when I tightened it back to the settings that I was shown by a rigger that helped me when I got the boat, that tendency disappeared. I am sure it is there at 35 degrees or further, but since I am always targeting 20 degrees of heel, I try never to get that far.

I think there is something for me to learned about rig, as my rigger did not set me up from the manual, but rather rigged it the way he thought it should be. The one time I noticed the rounding up tendency was when I followed the rigging instructions in the manual AND rigged the boat on the trailer after taking it to Seattle. I don't know which thing caused the problem.

And I am a new enough sailor to keelboats that it may all be my imagination. But as a new sailor, I can tell you that I notice starting to lose helm control immediately, and I *don't* like it, so I don't think it is that I don't notice. I have years of dinghy sailing under my belt, and I think that would help me notice a problem.

Anyway, FYI, FWIW. I just think it is fun to think about and discuss our boats, in order to learn more...

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2006 : 12:55:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 She's a Kansas boat Turk, she needs her blow.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You got that right! I don't think we will ever have as much wind as you on that lake.

Dorothy clicked the ruby slippers together and chanted, "There's no place like home. There's no place like home."

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2006 : 15:08:03

Kevin,
Can you relate what your rigger taught you? I'd like to have a good procedure for rigging our boat. Right now I'm going by the manual.

Edited by - on

bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2006 : 15:45:38

Bob;
To answer your question about recovery from a knock down, we have a wb and have been hit hard on a couple of occasions, both times due to line squals that I wasn't ready for. The boat was knocked down with the mast nearly in the water, it spun into the wind and imediately came upright. Prior to purchasing this boat we owned a Cal 25 I and a Cal 25 II both fin keel boats. Although these boats caried a lot more ballast, they didn't seem to be that much stiffer than the c250wb. My wife who has always been my #1 racing crew has every confidence in the 250wb. In many ways we like it much better. As far as headroom is concerned, we have no problem with the wb. As Arlyn has stated when we are at anchor we have the pop top up and are very comfortable. Water depth in our lake isn't a concern, but it sure is nice to gunkhole and not worry about going aground. The primary reason for buying the wb was ease of trailering and launching, we congratulate ourselves on our purchase every time we go sailing.

Good luck with your decision;
Bill
C250wb #134 Serendipity

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2006 : 16:46:54

Bob's original question (repeated) is whether the WB pops back up from a broach... Anybody?

"Afterberth"? David: Did you mean "afterbirth" or "aft-berth"?

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/23/2006 07:49:04

kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2006 : 20:52:40

David,

I will start another thread on it in a few days. It is not much to relate though. He did it by feel, and then I went and got a gauge and measured the tension on each shroud and the backstay (I don't have a guage the right size for the forestay). Essentially, he rigs it tighter than Catalina recommends, but not a lot. He has more tension on the backstay too, if I recall correctly. If I sound clueless about this, I am. Each time I rerig the boat after having the mast down, I essentially just try to duplicate the guage readings I measured after he did the rigging for me the last time...

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 11/23/2006 : 07:21:48

Kevin

When we did the test my boat was stock factory and I carry a 135 head sail furler also. I don't remember if we had the water tank filed or not. I do run my rigging probably a little loser than most people and do not have a backstay adjuster so in winds above 12 mph I reef the main. When I am single sometimes I will reef the jib down to the first jib teltale if the chop interval is short. If you have a snapfurl the directions for the headstay says to tighten the turnbuckle all the way. With this set up I set the backstay at 32 after I set the uppers for column. Then tighten the uppers to 40 and the lowers to 25. Those settings seem to work the best in my sailing area.

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 11/23/2006 : 15:11:06

Interesting. Thanks Frog. I will let you know what my settings are when I get out to the boat again. It is pouring rain here almost every day (very unusual for this place - frequent rain is normal, but usually is it light, not these downpours we have been getting), so I may not be out there for a couple of weeks...

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2006 : 08:22:20

I forgot to mention that with my settings, on a reach, the lower leeward shroud is flapping in the breeze. Most people do not like flapping shrouds, but it works for me pretty well in my enviornment.

Edited by - frog0911 on 11/24/2006 08:23:33

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2006 : 06:48:07

Kevin, the tighter rig will serve breezy conditions better than Jerry's... but performance advantage in lighter air will go to Jerry.

If I were a racer of a 250, I'd retune the rig for each race condition just as done on my Hobie 18. Doing so on the Hobie was a must if one intended to be compeditive. If a fleet of 250s raced in one design, I'd lay my money on the guy who properly tuned his rig for that days race conditions.

In light air, a tight rig is a dog and conversely, in heavy air a loose rig is equally a dog. Here is why.

The degree of lift of a foil is determined by the draft of the foil with a fuller draft having greater lift (more power). This simple dynamic is not without a hitch however, it being what is called the lift to drag ratio. As the lift quality of a foil is increased, so is drag increased.

Drag however isn't much of an issue in light air when as much power is needed from the sails as is possible. In heavy air when too much power exist, excess drag has two detrimental effects.
<ol type="1"><li>It causes excess heeling</li><li>It limits the speed of the wind over the sails</li></ol id="1">

On the Hobie, it wasn't only the rig tension that was set for a given wind condition, but the battens tension were adjusted to proved a certain draft, mast rotation angles adjusted, diamond shrouds adjusted to set the mast prebend and flatness of the main. In light air, the battens were adjusted very tight to force the main to have a full pocket. In a breese, the battens were ajusted only taught.

Also, the fiberglass battens were sanded in such a way to make them thinner at precisely the right place to cause them to bow more easily at the point where maximum draft position of the foil was desired to achieve the greatest lift from the foil.

Here is my story of starting to sail. Having never sailed previously, I bought a Hobie 18 and the dealer paid the first years dues and signed me up to a Hobie fleet that raced. The first half dozen races I got creamed by the experience of several owners that had sailed and raced for years. Wishing to be more compeditive, sailing skills were practiced but the greatest boost came from a book on setting the boat up to achieve its best performance.

It took a lot of work, there were many systems that had to be fully understood so they could be adjusted for a given days racing conditions. There was an immediate result... beginner mistakes could be overcome by having the faster boat and when mistakes were kept to a minimum...I'd win.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 11/26/2006 06:52:39

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