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cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/03/2006 : 11:55:48

Something that I have noticed since we bought our C25 in March of this year. It isn't anything earth shattering or of great consequence, but it does make me wonder from time to time.

During our ASA Keelboat Certification Classes, the instructor had us raise the main sail at the slip before departure. And we didn't take it down until we returned to the slip. At first I thought it was just because the desiel engine wasn't running, but that changed recently.

About a month ago, the instructor helped her brother inlaw move a, new to him, C25 from the north part of Grand Lake to the southern part where she has her boat. They got to our end of the lake late an decided to duck into our marina for the night since we have some open slips.

The next day, we ran into her just before departure and she did the same thing. The outboard was running and in the water, but she raised the mainsail before leaving the slip. It certainly makes undoing the sail ties and raising easier to be at the slip, but it just made me wonder which was the right way...if there is any difference?

Mike
Grand Lake, OK
N.O. Catalina 25 #4849
In my opinion 75% of the earth is water for a reason. That's why I sail.

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2006 : 12:20:24

I can't think of any reason to do that unless you have to go to the mast to raise the sail and she did'nt like doing that. I undo my sail cover at the slip. I have a bungee cord wrapped around the main at about the mid point of the sail so I can reach it with the cabin top slip forward. When I am at the place to raise the main, I undo the bungee and go back to the cockpit and raise the main from there. Cheers.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2006 : 12:59:30

I have done it both ways, but for most of the time, I start the moter and moter out to the end of our cove, take another look at the winds, then have my wife steer head to wind and raise the main sail.

When we sail directly from the dock (no moter) then we raise the main and have the genoa ready to go.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2006 : 13:24:56

There is no "right way." I'm on Tenkiller, and the majority of the time I do not raise the sails at the slip. Wind direction and speed are the biggest considerations. My slip is next to a covered slip, and my sails could easily get hooked on the roof of the next slip. It would be okay if the wind is on the bow, but if the wind is astern, it is impossible to back out of the slip with the sails raised.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2006 : 16:45:55

We usually raise the main once we've left the dock but before we turn the corner to get out on the Lake. Generally speaking there is more maneuverability in marina with a motor and not with the sails.

Coming back in depending on wind direction we drop the main outside the breakwall or just after rounding the cut in the breakwall.

Red Circle is where we'd do it inside. Green circle is where it normally would go up outside. Many times on race night we won't even put any sails up till we get out to the starting area.

Edited by - on

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2006 : 09:29:35

On most boats it seems logical if your boat is faced into the wind or very close to it. I have returned many times with the main up, but if the wind is always blowing you can be in serious doo doo. I would say your skill level will dictate the need for launching from the pier with sails up.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2006 : 11:21:07

While its not really necessary, I would suggest that every boat owner practice sailing off from their slips. You will never know when this will come in handy, and its a skill that should be practiced in all kinds of winds.

We were out 4 years ago and it must have been the 4th or 5th time I had had our boat out sailing. We had taken my brother and sister-in law out for a nice sail on a breezy day. after going out and setting sail, we were coming back into the docks, we lowered sail (first mistake) heading into the wind, then I went back to start the motor. I pulled and pulled on that dam cord and it wouldn't start. We were now heading right at the break water and some good sized rocks. I thru off the cover of the motor cussing like a sailor (its true I sail) and low and behold found the problem. It seems that the motor will NOT start in gear!!!

The next couple of times out we practiced sailing into our mooring and to the docks for safety. It was a good lesson.

Edited by - on

kenobie51
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2006 : 11:29:38

There is one reason for raising the main before leaving the slip and conversly leaving it up until back. Consider the situation if the engine should stall while in the harbor or channel. A sail at the ready would let you take advantage of any favorable wind and allow you continue out, return, or have some control over where you crash. That said, I rarely do it myself. I have blind faith in my old outboard.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2006 : 11:45:11

I almost always start my outboard, then raise my main in the slip. I have an upwind slip but the wind usually comes from the front quarter. Backing out is easy, having the main up makes turning easy. If it is really windy (15 knots plus) I won't put it up in the slip, too much leeway at low speeds. Leave the sheet loose, the main points into the wind and generates no thrust.

I practice sailing back in frequently. Do it with the motor in neutral the first few times so its ready if you need it.

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2006 : 12:08:33

Many marinas have a 'no sailing in the marina' policy.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3460 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2006 : 12:27:47

I go along with the practicing to dock with sails up and even sailing away from a dock with sails up. In small boats, that is oftentimes the way it has to be done and many have started on small boats...so shold be that more familiar with it.

But this is also about common sense. if your slip is tucked inside a large marina and it means negotiating past countless number of boats and turning down between docks to get to your finger slip, there is too much too risk with counting on the wind to remain steady and not counting on other boats coming out at same time you are coming in or leaving. Also, with change in direction to go between docks and then into a slip, there is little/no room for tacking. We, as sailors, all learn to respect mother nature and there is always the chance that something unexpected can happen. With boats that way upwards of 4500 lbs, we do not stop on a dime and when we hit other boats, etc we do not necessarily do so with just a light tap...and another owner would not appreciate a tap even if it was a light one.

My thought is that when choosing a marina (and I made this choice), one consideration should eb how accessible is the marina if you had no motor power ? can one sail easily up or down the channel to access the marina versus a marina that has a very narrow channel with no forgiveness if one had to tack with only say 50 feet wide, etc. Given that one selects a marina that has a wide enough channel (hoipefully having options as far as selecting a marina) does the marina have an outside dock. many do but some do not. if one has motor problems then the outside dock is what shold be used and sailing technique is great to practice on for that one time you need to use that ou6tside dock. before i bought my new motor, i used that outside dock 3 times and had to keep my boat there overnight -- twice. So...that is what should be practiced for an outside dock docking under sail.

But for many, the sailing into a marina inbetween docks down to a finger slip is risky and even worse if the space between the docks is narrow. Not adviseable.

I leave my finger slip with sails ready but under motor power. I have control. Wind is rarely a factor at all but with motor power, i am in control. i come back and lower sails outside the marina for same reason...entering marina under control. Practice docking under sail is fine...worthwhile...but having an outside dock for those instances is first decision to make when selecting a marina and then you are prepared for those times when emergencies require docking under sail.

Edited by - on

millermg
Navigator

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159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2006 : 12:42:56

I second the 'practicing sailing in and out of the slip' notion. Not only will it save you if and when your motor fails you, it will greatly increase your boat handling skills. Main thing is, practice raising and dousing so this can be done at a moment's notice. The ability to get them down or furled the instant you need to is key, or you may find yourself with some nasty dock-dents.

Added benefit- everyone in the marina who sees you will be very impressed by your sailing skills!

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2006 : 13:13:24

From the comments it seems that this is an unusual occurrence. However, IMHO, the ability to leave and return via sail power only is a skill that should be practiced just in case. It would seem to me though that the head sail might be better suited for this purpose.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2006 : 13:56:53

It's usually much easier and safer to use the mainsail alone to sail to your slip. On a C25, as between the jib and the mainsail, the jib is the sail that generates the most power, by far. You don't want power and speed when docking under sail. On the contrary, you want to keep your speed to a minimum, because sailboats don't have brakes. The mainsail is the sail that lets you point. It helps you sail to windward, if need be.

Suppose you're using the jib alone, and you need to sail to windward to get to your slip. A huge puff comes along. The jib is going to tend to pull the bow off, downwind. Also, unless you have a roller furler, you can't partially furl the jib. Therefore, even if you can nurse the boat to windward, the likelihood is that you'll gain too much speed, because the jib generates too much power.

If only the mainsail is flying and a big puff comes along, you can continue sailing to windward, if necessary. If you find that you're going too fast, you can lower the mainsail partially, letting the bottom half of it fall onto the coach roof, and leaving only the top half of it in the mast slot, driving the boat. If you have to tack, the mainsail won't snag on the rigging during the tack, as the jib will, because the mainsail is self-tending during a tack.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2006 : 14:21:41

A while back when prior to getting the C-25 and when I had just started racing evelyn the skipper told me I could have the boat for the weekend if I sailed her back from a regatta and if it was okay with the other owner.

The other owner said he wanted me to handle her after a Wednesday race first before he made up his mind.

In order to dock the boat you have to sail up the Rocky River against the current in order to get to the slip. On the way in it was getting late, I conscientiously called for the running lights and had the crew drop the sails and clean up as normal… right at the mouth of the river I called down for the batteries to be switched over so I could fire up the iron genoa. The owner looked at me, said “expletive that” your motor is shot, now what are you going to do. I managed to call for the douse at just the right time and we brought the boat almost perfectly.

I think about that and the MOB drills we did often and we do occasionally practice sailing in and have actually used the former skill once when we pressed and ran out of gas. With all the racing of J-22s in our neck of the woods it’s a very common sight to see the little boats coming in under sail because they don’t have a choice. It can be very impressive in almost any weather situation.

I’m not so sure I see any value to learning how to sail out. I’ve done it a few times early in the season while the motor was in the shop, but I think the circumstances that would warrant sailing out are rare. Rare enough in my mind that the risk/reward is too high (in my current slip and marina)

dw

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2006 : 18:10:31

I used to sail out with my Merit 25 but I would be afraid of making too much leeway with any Catalina 25, our foils are not the best. Lots of racers walk their boats out with out sails up, simply having the crew shift weight side to side, the good foils have so much lift they boats move out from the slips quickly. By the time they hhave rounded the end of the dock into the wind the sails are up and they be sail'n. You can try that on a Catalina 25 but I would have crew assigned to fending off!

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2006 : 18:22:16

I have to make three very sharp turns just to get out of my marina, then I am in the cliton river which is narrow and wall to wall slips for the 1.5 miles to the lake then another half mile out the channel to a depth where I can let down my keel. In my case however, if my engine quit, I would just pull into a slip. Tring to sail in or out of the marina would make me too nervious. Cheers.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2006 : 18:42:29

My marina doesn't allow manuevering under sail, but on three occasions I've had to break the rule to get back in. In each of these situations, I used my furling headsail. Coming in under sail didn't really affect my docking technique since I ususally come into the slip in nuetral anyway. I just furled in my headsail at the point where I usually put my outboard in neutral then simply coasted into slip as I normally do.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2006 : 20:35:55

I like to put up my main in the slip or on the mooring ball, then motor out. The only time I won't do this is when I'll be in too narrow of confines to swing the boom to spill wind.

I watched an ISPA instructor all summer. He left the mooring field and the dock with main sail up. Most times he sailed back to their mooring ball under one sail or the other, not both.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2006 : 20:44:33

Depends on the wind direction for me. If favorable I'll raise the main at the slip.

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2006 : 21:18:38

Steve,
I see what you mean about using the mainsail rather than the headsail... Shows why practicing any different exit or returning could be a good thing. I didn't even consider the issues you raised with the jib until you replied.

One thing I do like to do at the slip is raise the mainsail enough to get most of the sail "slugs?" past the guide at the bottom of the mast. That way when raising it from the cockpit when out, I do not have to worry about any of them hanging up on the guide.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2006 : 16:43:03

I dont raise a sail when exiting the slip as in our area the wind is rarely from a "prevailing" direction. Having a main up in a x-wind while trying to exit a slip is just asking for trouble. Get clear, then raise 'em - BUT, not until you're ready to sail. Running under power with flogging sails just robs 'em of good sailing life.

That being said, on a mooring ball it's a different story. The boat's always pointed into the wind, and the main makes a great steadying sail (and emergency control should the engine quit). But again, I'm going sailing asap. If I have a lot of manuvering to get to more open water, leave 'em down.

When cruising, I usually raise the main as soon as I round out of the marina and kill the engine. The exception is when the channel out is upwind and there's a lot of traffic (weekends). If there's no traffic I dont mind tacking out.

When racing, whole 'nuther Oprah. Slip to starting area under engine alone, and at high power once clear of the marina channel to skim the crud off the bottom (much less of an issue with the new VC17 bottom!). Once in the starting area, main only. Usually dont raise the genoa until the 4m gun. All that tacking about and flogging is hell on those expensive sails.

RETURNING to the marina is also a different story. I frequently sail all the way to the slip for several reasons:
1. It's great practice in sail/boat handling.
2. We have to pull the engine off the mount to race, and sometime's I'm just too dam busy with that post-race celebratory (hopefully!) beverage to put it back on.
3. It's just plain COOL.

Re what SINGLE sail to use - my philosophy is to always use the sail most down wind. If you're going upwind, use the main. Downwind, use the genoa. The offset of the Center of Effort v the Center of Lift will help keep the boat in line with minimal steering input.

My $0.02.
Jim
#183 - Team Short Bus

Aside: I also took the ASA keelboat class (at the time thinking I needed it to bareboat charter). During the on-the-water portion I was trimming the genoa and we tacked. I trimmed up the new sheet and immediately loaded up the lazy sheet. Got chided by the instructor who said if we needed to blow the sheet the lazy would hold it trimmed. While I agree with the principle (and in heavy air I pre-load with a fair amount of slack), I had to tell the instructor "Don't race much, do ya?".

Edited by - SailCO26 on 12/05/2006 16:47:57

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2006 : 17:36:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cat1951
 One thing I do like to do at the slip is raise the mainsail enough to get most of the sail "slugs?" past the guide at the bottom of the mast. That way when raising it from the cockpit when out, I do not have to worry about any of them hanging up on the guide.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you use mast gates?

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2006 : 18:49:46

Yes I have mast gates, but they still grab once in a while. I did spray some sail slide on them recently and that seems to have fixed the problem.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2006 : 19:01:32

If the windspeed is about 8 kts or more, and you can get to a position directly upwind of your dock or slip, it's a snap to sail to it. Just lower all your sails and sail the rest of the way under bare pole. You don't have to worry about furling or smothering your sails, or catching a gust and gaining too much speed. That just doesn't happen under bare pole. Unless you're in a pretty strong wind, the boat won't go very fast under bare pole, and, if it does, you can slow it down by making a few sharp zig-zag turns before you get there. Absent a strong wind, the boat will coast gently into her slip.

Incidentally, everyone should practice sailing the boat under bare pole occasionally. You can actually get the boat to sail a beam reach under bare pole, and there were a couple of times that I thought it was even sailing a little closer than a beam reach in a strong breeze. I've sailed my C25 under bare pole for perhaps 1 1/2 or 2 miles, from the lake into the mouth of the creek, and to the marina. I could steer it from one side of the creek to the other, and back, to avoid other boat traffic or line up my approach. The first couple times you do it, you'll be surprised at how much control you have over the boat's course. If you can approach your slip from upwind, the easiest way to sail to it is just to lower all sails and steer the boat in.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 12/05/2006 19:07:45

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2006 : 19:59:26

Along with what Steve just said, I'll scull the rudder a bit if I need a little more speed entering the slip and if I need to turn the bow, I'll scull it in one direction (throw the tiller over quickly then slowly bring it back) to help turn the boat.

Edited by - on

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